Self Traning and Ranking Group

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Kevin, I don't agree. "They" might be folks like Seo, and Lee and some other people but most of the people who practice Hapkido arts know they practice Hapkido arts and they don't kid themselves about it. Nor, at this time in my life, do I care to play a serious game of "GotCha". I don't think there is anyone in the community who doesn't know that people pumped up a lot of crap to keep money coming this way or that way. Nice thing about mistakes is that the next generation doesn't have to perpetuate them.

If you step away from the politics there are many people who practice TANG SOO DO, eclectic Hapkido, ICHF, mixes of TKD and HKD, BJJ and HKD, "Modern Hapkido", "traditional Hapkido", etc., etc. What are you going to do--- subject them to your judgement before you decide if they are worthy of investment of time and energy? You seem to be working awfully hard at delineating clear, sharp differences among people whose only mistake was that they didn't all have the same teacher?

If somebody wants to get on the mat and workout I think thats great. If they can help me do a technique better than how I have been doing it, better yet! And if I can reciprocate thats even better! But this whole idea of keeping the Hapkido community at each others throats just so someone can have some sort of bragging rights to exclusivity is really pretty old, ya know?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

... this whole idea of keeping the Hapkido community at each others throats just so someone can have some sort of bragging rights to exclusivity is really pretty old, ya know?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce and Stuart:
This is precisely what I had hoped to convey, but somehow my posts did not come out as clear on this issue. Thanks for doing a better job on this Bruce, as I truly believe that NOTHING is served if we keep up the same old same old.

It is time to move ahead, and the real issue is what people actually do on the mat. If it looks like Hap Ki Do, it IS Hap Ki Do, and there are enough good people who CAN see (on the mat) that a Rose by a different name is still a Rose (no matter what the leaders of their former group now call it).

BTW, I am not fighting to be accepted by anyone here. I have paid my dues, and there are enough good Hap Ki Do people who know who I am and what I teach. My sole aim here is to help Stuart get past some of the hurdles that may make his idea sink before it ever floats. Bruce just wrote a better post to clarify and point out the problems I saw all along.

 

[iron_ox]

Self-serving statements that have little to do with truth leave false impressions to those who do not know the whole story. Good reason not to make hasty decisions.

Suh, Seo, Lee have had 20 years and LOTS of press to explain why they are not Hapkido - sorry, but I don't see how we can have it both ways...

 

[iron_ox]

Kevin. What you are saying is that the top dogs change their stories. That does not mean that the litter EVER changed what they learned and continue to teach.

Change their stories? Don't know anything about that - Seo claimed from at least 1985 to be the head of ALL Korean Martial Arts except TaeKwonDo via the KiDo Assn. - then, left there and suddenly starts Assn. dedicated to Hapkido when all primary gradings came from brother who is not Hapkido - doesn't sound like a story change, more like a paradigm shift.

 

[kwanjang]

Suh, Seo, Lee have had 20 years and LOTS of press to explain why they are not Hapkido - sorry, but I don't see how we can have it both ways...

I know that YOU can't see how their claims never made a change to what I learned and teach, and I can live with that believe it or not

What Stuart et all have to wrestle with is whether or not they agree with you. If they do, it makes it a lot easier for folks sitting on the sidelines to not waste a lot of their time working on something that excludes them.

Having this dilemma in the open helps all of us, and that is why I continue to ask these questions. I think it is only fair that the organizers make their position on this abundantly clear rigth now.

 

[American HKD]

I know that YOU can't see how their claims never made a change to what I learned and teach, and I can live with that believe it or not

What Stuart et all have to wrestle with is whether or not they agree with you. If they do, it makes it a lot easier for folks sitting on the sidelines to not waste a lot of their time working on something that excludes them.

Having this dilemma in the open helps all of us, and that is why I continue to ask these questions. I think it is only fair that the organizers make their position on this abundantly clear rigth now.

Rudy,

Thanks I understand.

 

[iron_ox]

Sorry, Kevin, I don't agree. "They" might be folks like Seo, and Lee and some other people but most of the people who practice Hapkido arts know they practice Hapkido arts and they don't kid themselves about it.

KID themselves? They don't want to be Hapkido, THEY say so, so why do yoiu continue to lump them in with real Hapkido?

Nor, at this time in my life, do I care to play a serious game of "GotCha". I don't think there is anyone in the community who doesn't know that people pumped up a lot of crap to keep money coming this way or that way. Nice thing about mistakes is that the next generation doesn't have to perpetuate them.

Sorry here, but if your instructor says you ain't learning Hapkido, but his own thing, you have a choice if you want to learn Hapkido, and that would be to leave and start training in a Hapkido dojang. We would have some nerve to come up to someone and say "This is Hapkido, if he wants it to be punchs, throws, palm strikes and Chinese weapons-do.

If you step away from the politics there are many people who practice TANG SOO DO, eclectic Hapkido, ICHF, mixes of TKD and HKD, BJJ and HKD, "Modern Hapkido", "traditional Hapkido", etc., etc. What are you going to do--- subject them to your judgement before you decide if they are worthy of investment of time and energy?

Don't make this about MY judgement - wrong call there - these other organizations DO NOT want to be called Hapkido - they want to be different - so let them - that is their call - I have never said they are not - they DO. Are all Karate styles Shotokan? No, so why do you persist in trying to make all Korean styles "Hapkido"?

You seem to be working awfully hard at delineating clear, sharp differences among people whose only mistake was that they didn't all have the same teacher?

No, I want to delineate Hapkido and the roots of Choi, Yong Sul from the self serving 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dans that left Hapkido, for whatever reason, added a bunch of other stuff, gave themselves super dans, and called it something else. They can call it whatever they want, and teach whatever they want, but don't say I am the one creating delineation - Kuksoolwon, Hwarangdo, etc.etc. did that long ago and continue to do so. This is some kind of PC arguement that "we should all just get along" and "stop being devisive" - well that wasn't me that paid Taekwondo Times and Black Belt magazines for 20 years to publish how different they are from Hapkido and how they have no connection (true or not) to Choi, Yong Sul.

If somebody wants to get on the mat and workout I think thats great. If they can help me do a technique better than how I have been doing it, better yet! And if I can reciprocate thats even better! But this whole idea of keeping the Hapkido community at each others throats just so someone can have some sort of bragging rights to exclusivity is really pretty old, ya know?

Who is looking for bragging rights? Is it wrong to have a true understanding of the art that you train in and teach? I think not. Who is at each others throats? The only time this seems to come up is when it is asked like that - LOOK - there is Hapkido and there is all the other arts that were created by a group of individuals that for whatever their reason do not want to be classified as Hapkido - why can't you just let them go? You can all go and train together if it suits you, that is a whole different issue - bring a few jujitsu guys for other throws, a few mantis guys for some cool strikes, maybe a BJJ guy or two for sport fighting, and have a great time on the mat training - that is whooly different and I think training with others can bring a fresh perspective to things. But, when you speak of standards and requirements for Hapkido, why not just include Hapkido?
Best Wishes,

Bruce

As always, I do respect everyones opinion, but just don't agree with it.

 

[iron_ox]

I know that YOU can't see how their claims never made a change to what I learned and teach, and I can live with that believe it or not

What Stuart et all have to wrestle with is whether or not they agree with you. If they do, it makes it a lot easier for folks sitting on the sidelines to not waste a lot of their time working on something that excludes them.

Having this dilemma in the open helps all of us, and that is why I continue to ask these questions. I think it is only fair that the organizers make their position on this abundantly clear rigth now.

Sorry Rudy, but you keep focusing in on what you learned and teach, my issues are not directed at you, but the inclusion of technical information from groups that do not want to be considered Hapkido. Technical aspects aside, and they may indeed be quite close, these groups do not want to be considered Hapkido - that has been my only concern - I still don't think I have ever personally questioned either your training or ability. Not my style.

 

[kwanjang]

Sorry Rudy, but you keep focusing in on what you learned and teach, my issues are not directed at you, but the inclusion of technical information from groups that do not want to be considered Hapkido. Technical aspects aside, and they may indeed be quite close, these groups do not want to be considered Hapkido - that has been my only concern - I still don't think I have ever personally questioned either your training or ability. Not my style.

Sorry Kevin, but if we follow YOUR logic, you are not teaching Hap Ki Do, you are teaching Yawara, and only the JI people should be included. I just don't follow your reasoning here.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Again, not trying to make this a personal battle here. Not sure why you are. Hapkido is the art of Choi, Yong Sul. The name, and name alone, Ji claims is something he made up, until the death of Choi, then the claims became more grandeous. Several older Korean master dispute that the then 13-14 year old did this. Don't really care, Choi called his art Hapkido. This is evident on the certificates that he signed, where the art was clearly called Hapkido.

Again, what I am saying is that the other groups are saying they are not Hapkido. Specifically, that is Kuksoolwan and Hwarangdo (for starters) - this was not a nomenclature issue - they say they are not Hapkido - they claim to have no real roots with Choi - until recently, the tune appears to change.

So, my logic is quite clear - and the question is still valid - why include groups that do not want to be called Hapkido - as is their own right - they broke away, left, or were never affiliated, they have throws, locks and weapons, they have their own philosophy, and their own agenda. They are not Hapkido because they say they are not.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Rudy, et all, this is not a personal war here.

Sorry I brought up the topic at all.

Include everyone, the more the merrier. Lets all start calling every KMA that is not TaeKwonDo, Hapkido. Don't worry about rank or lineage. It might be advantageous to decide who will be considered senior by one of two methods: 1. Get on the mat and have a knock down drag out fight - but watch it here, the 20 year olds have pretty good stamina and might upset the apple cart if they win (maybe not, we might then get Nintendo Hapkido) or 2. Maybe a bake off, best pies are the seniors...

Hey, there are guys in Iowa (I think) that have created a new KMA from Taebo and WWE Wrestling - include them to - eventually some group will legitimize them.

If the goal here is to create a mismash of all things that anyone has ever created, boil it down to a minimum, then call it a standard, then that goal shall soon be reached.

Pandering to the Lowest Common Denominator is an American custom. Instead of defining here what Hapkido really is, this looks like an attempt to placate all those who are not Hapkido by their own creation and admission, and in some ill-conceived attempt at being overly PC, any version of any KMA is included - and called Hapkido.

I very respectfully admire the work you are doing, but do not agree with it. Again, I also respect all those courageous enough to post an opinion here - often it takes guts but the conversation generally hasd great value. I will continue the more mundane issues of lineage and rank as issued by Hapkido's founder, Choi, Yong Sul, but will continue to read on in interest.

 

[kwanjang]

Kevin: In that case why don't you call the art you teach (a form of) Jiu Jitsu. THAT is the root of DJN Choi's art, and HE called it something else when he returned to Korea. YOU are in the same boat I am in, because the founder of your art did the same thing GM Suh did (as did so many others).

Not making this personal either, because I could give a hoot one way or the other. Just not going to buy into your philosophy that's all, and I want to give this audience the benefit of other views on this subject

In any case, I am not going to waste more of my time on this issue here, as I think the folks on this forum have had a chance to see two (or more) sides of it, and they can make up their own minds. I am not one to try and push my ideas onto them, and all I am interested in is giving Stuart a chance to see where this sort of thinking might take him and his idea.

 

[American HKD]

Hello all,

Again, not trying to make this a personal battle here. Not sure why you are. Hapkido is the art of Choi, Yong Sul. The name, and name alone, Ji claims is something he made up, until the death of Choi, then the claims became more grandeous. Several older Korean master dispute that the then 13-14 year old did this. Don't really care, Choi called his art Hapkido. This is evident on the certificates that he signed, where the art was clearly called Hapkido.

Again, what I am saying is that the other groups are saying they are not Hapkido. Specifically, that is Kuksoolwan and Hwarangdo (for starters) - this was not a nomenclature issue - they say they are not Hapkido - they claim to have no real roots with Choi - until recently, the tune appears to change.

So, my logic is quite clear - and the question is still valid - why include groups that do not want to be called Hapkido - as is their own right - they broke away, left, or were never affiliated, they have throws, locks and weapons, they have their own philosophy, and their own agenda. They are not Hapkido because they say they are not.

Kevin,

In a sense I agree with you that we're not trying to exlude anyone they're doing ot themselves.

However thier original roots were in Hapkido and Rudy was involved back then and still relates to KukSool & Hwrang Do as Hapkido he maybe one of only a few who sees it that way.
We're from a later generation so we see a clearer division in these systems and Hapkido.

Look at He Young Kim (Our Time) he created Han Mu Do which I would really call reorganized Hapkido. I have his book and a copy of a Han Mu Do tape to 1st dan and it's exactly the same tech for tech.

Why re-shuffe the deck and call the same thing a different name?
For what purpose?

Or is it simply to be independant like a cabinet maker who's apprentice goes and opens his own shop after he's has the expertise to make a good peice of furniture?

 

[dosandojang]

WHY did the Founders of Kuk Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do, Han Mu Do, etc., CHANGE the name of what they REALLY learned in the FIRST place (HAP KI DO)?????? The HONEST answer?

 

[Disco]

An old saying:

"A tree is never so foolish as to have it's branches fighting amoungst themselves"....

 

[American HKD]

Check out this link it shows connections to Hapkido, KukSool, Hwrand do.

ttp://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html

Very interesting

 

[Paul B]

That link didn't work,Stuart...but that's a good analogy about the carpenters' apprentice.

I would just like to say that I agree that the Hapkido community could do nothing but benefit from any attempt at unity. It may not end up the way Stuart envisions,but any attempt at bringing Hapkidoin together is better than none.

People have always done what they have thought best at the time,and many ended up rueing their decisions,but hopefully we can look past what others have done,and look forward to a time when Hapkidoin can communicate with each other about Hapkido,in terms everyone knows and understands.

Like it or not gentleman,us lower yudanja are the future of Hapkido,and I for one am sick and tired of seeing my parents and uncles squabble about "family matters",when it can be so easily resolved to simply admit we're family. Even the "uncle" nobody talks about is still family,and the family doesn't disown the children of that uncle,even if they disown the uncle. Change will come to Hapkido,just for the simple fact that my generation is more tolerant,and more willing to hash it out.There is a lot to be said for tradition,and respecting one's lineage,but it can't continue to stagnate,if it does...it dies. Good communication between Hapkidoin can do nothing but help Hapkido,be it technically or spritually.

That being said....I hope that nobody takes this personally,I just hope it makes you think about the future. Hapkido is bigger than the individual.

 

[kwanjang]

WHY did the Founders of Kuk Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do, Han Mu Do, etc., CHANGE the name of what they REALLY learned in the FIRST place (HAP KI DO)?????? The HONEST answer?

Really quite simple Dosandojang.
You simply can't go your own way by using the same old name for ANYTHING. It just does not work to advertise for your competition, and in many cases you would violate trademark laws.

 

[MDFJ]

I think there a great ideals presented here by those individuals who are seeking to better the Hapkido community..

The problem as I see it, is exactly who wants to be in the "Hapkido" community, it seems there are some who should be, but do not want to be, and others who want to be, but would not be considered to be because of their Choi/Ji/Other Lineage or lack of..

I get the feeling that you could never have another organisation which would please everyone and have complete membership.

I think this has been mentioned before, but a "Hapkido Standards Council" without politics/certificates etc, just a one time small application fee to membership of the standards group... sounds like a great Idea, but would be difficult to have people agree on those standards..

Even if you tell someone that it doesnt matter what affiliation / lineage etc you have, there will be people who would not want to join based on who else would be allowed to join if they do not believe anything other than their own style is true Hapkido.

Standards are the Quality of something, Quality does not mean good or best it simply means the consistent outcome of prescribed process, all Hamburger restaurants have a quality standard they work to, which produce a consistant quality of product, to the minimum agreed industry/market standard to call it a hamburger/beefburger - It has beef, bread and is hot & edible... etc

Wendy's may not like McDonalds, Burger King may not like Hungry Joe's, and we as customers would also have our favourites, but everyone can agree they produce beefburgers to a minimum quality standard..

The UK BSI has a quality stamp it applies to any product/company, Best or budget (subject to opinion) which can prove it meets minimum quality procedures and standards for what it is/produces.

Could the same be done for Hapkido...?

Not sure, I love the idea, but i think it would be Difficult.

Just my humble thoughts FWIW.

Repects and Regards to all.

Marc

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Paul try again the link works.

http://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html

Very interesting assesment showing clearly that Hapkido came first and KukSool and Hwrang Do were fabricated by thier perspective founders making up who taught them and the phony history to back it up.

All can say is it's really Wild!!!!