Self Traning and Ranking Group

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

".....Who is looking for bragging rights? Is it wrong to have a true understanding of the art that you train in and teach? I think not. ....."

It is if that is not really what you are about. Its very apparent that nobody knows exactly what it was that Choi either learned or taught. To pretend that you somehow have stumbled on to the exclusive pure strain of Choi tradition makes your claims no different from many other people who also have made the same claims albeit based on different points of view.

"..... why can't you just let them go? You can all go and train together if it suits you, that is a whole different issue - bring a few jujitsu guys for other throws, a few mantis guys for some cool strikes, maybe a BJJ guy or two for sport fighting, and have a great time on the mat training - that is whooly different and I think training with others can bring a fresh perspective to things....... "

That is NOT what we are speaking of--- and YOU KNOW that is not what we are speaking of. It is unseemly for you to purposely misrepresent what you know not to be true just to further your position. For my part I don't let other people who are interested in the Hapkido arts "go" because that is not the way it works. The combative arts of Korea have been taught for centuries, called different things for centuries. Now, along you come and want to tease out one person and one tradition as though that is the whole package. Choi and Ji and a host of others may be renowned men, but they are still just individuals in a crowd of individuals going back generations.

Nor do I care for you throwing the stupidity and meaness of past leaders up as the standard by which we are suppose to conduct ourselves today. I suppose I can understand the need for people who couldn't cut-it in Korea coming to America and selling round-eyes a bill-of-goods with evidence to the contrary. That was when we practitioners didn't know better. We are adults now and I, for one, don't buy the idea of anyone setting themselves up as the exclusive source of the Single Truth--- especially when its the same hurtful idealogy that has damaged the Hapkido community so badly in the past.

And just so people hear it one more time------

what I am advocating are standards. You are the one who seems to be into requirements. Lets keep the two separate, shall we?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Dear Kevin:

".....Who is looking for bragging rights? Is it wrong to have a true understanding of the art that you train in and teach? I think not. ....."

It is if that is not really what you are about. Its very apparent that nobody knows exactly what it was that Choi either learned or taught. To pretend that you somehow have stumbled on to the exclusive pure strain of Choi tradition makes your claims no different from many other people who also have made the same claims albeit based on different points of view.

Where have I ever made such claims? This BS about MY OPINION and MY AGENDA is just smoke for what is really going on, which is the continued watering down of the style that DID not exist in Korea prior to Choi, Yong Sul. As far as a "pure strain" - I trained in the Choi material in the UK, never found it here in the US with those I trained with and found the same material with Choi's longest training student. So, when you keep saying "nobody" knows what Choi learned or taught, changed that to "some of us (you)" because I am confident and comfortable that is what I am learning - so stop this "Choi was and enigma that no-one understood...".

It has been said here on more than a few occasions that "MY" opinion is only one, again in this thread in particular it is not "MY" opinion and YOU KNOW THAT. I have simply re-stated what these organizations have stated for the last 20+ years, and if members of these groups don't want to believe it or hear it, then they should have gotten out...

It is not my opinion, but that of Lee, Joo Bang and Suh, In Hyuk that say they are not Hapkido - REREAD these posts.

"..... why can't you just let them go? You can all go and train together if it suits you, that is a whole different issue - bring a few jujitsu guys for other throws, a few mantis guys for some cool strikes, maybe a BJJ guy or two for sport fighting, and have a great time on the mat training - that is whooly different and I think training with others can bring a fresh perspective to things....... "

That is NOT what we are speaking of--- and YOU KNOW that is not what we are speaking of. It is unseemly for you to purposely misrepresent what you know not to be true just to further your position. For my part I don't let other people who are interested in the Hapkido arts "go" because that is not the way it works. The combative arts of Korea have been taught for centuries, called different things for centuries. Now, along you come and want to tease out one person and one tradition as though that is the whole package. Choi and Ji and a host of others may be renowned men, but they are still just individuals in a crowd of individuals going back generations.

Now an agenda FINALLY comes out. HAPKIDO started Feb. 21, 1948 - you are the only one here that believes it went back for generations - without a thread of evidence. By the inclusion of any KMA you can somehow push the agenda that Hapkido is generic - fine, that is what you want to do - just provide that name of any one man that trained people in these techniques before Choi - a real human. Tease out one person? This is sickening - YOUR entire Hapkido training experience is with people trained by Choi or one of his students - experience in arts without this lineage are not Hapkido. MY OPINION, please, here is conjucture of the highest order.

Nor do I care for you throwing the stupidity and meaness of past leaders up as the standard by which we are suppose to conduct ourselves today. I suppose I can understand the need for people who couldn't cut-it in Korea coming to America and selling round-eyes a bill-of-goods with evidence to the contrary. That was when we practitioners didn't know better. We are adults now and I, for one, don't buy the idea of anyone setting themselves up as the exclusive source of the Single Truth--- especially when its the same hurtful idealogy that has damaged the Hapkido community so badly in the past.

Sorry, missed most of the point here, but the hurtful stuff came with those that lied about who they were...Find me one other art that does not have a hierarchy, traceable lineage and founder, or reputed founder - why would Hapkido be the only art in the world that is based on generic "group" claims? Sorry, but the "hurtful ideology" has nothing to do with Choi as the founder or his students - but mainly to do with impatient westerners that clammered for rank and position and created a situation where greed could flourish.

And just so people hear it one more time------

what I am advocating are standards.A STANDARD OF WHAT - a delineation of the lowest common denominator of any KMA that comes down the pike that wants to call itself Hapkido?

You are the one who seems to be into requirements. No sir, a standard of the art of Hapkido - using Hapkido as a base - if the other offshoots would like to then compare - great - they can see where they are then different or the same as Hapkido. Lets keep the two separate, shall we?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I feel that it is fine to disagreee, but it is outrageous that over and over the term "MY" opinion has been used here. Don't try to set me up as a fall guy for the fact that the very organizations that are being used as a Hapkido standard do not consider themselves Hapkido. That is their opinion, their RIGHT, not my opinion.

Now, you can have my opinion: The fact that they are included at all in a standard of Hapkido is laughable - they were low ranking black belts and started their own thing - cool for them - they do not want to consider themselves Hapkido, and for all the press they paid for, I feel we should respect their wishes. Now, when 20+ years later, a prominant member of one of these groups jumps ship, or was pushed, and decides to join the Hapkido bandwagon, I simply disagree.

Lots of talk goes around about "don't be divisive" "let's just get along" - thats fine too. I'm happy to train and talk to anyone, but when the discussion turns to what is Hapkido to say that claiming that Choi is the founder is somehow divisive smacks of an underlying agenda - to maintain control (however slight) to the notion that if it is true, lots of "ranked" individuals don't have the rank they claim...so financially, they could lose. As long as the "generic" Hapkido definition is accepted, no one is in jeapardy. Some of the personal agendas here far outweigh the simple question I asked - hence the blustery reponses...

End rant. Sorry, but a few of you here on this thread want to twist what is said. Get on with your LCD standard of all KMA's, I wish you well, I'm letting this one go unless the few want to keep dragging me back. Get on with the standards mission, when you prove to yourselves that Hapkido is generic, have a party - more the college type, lots of beer and stuff, not the wine and cheese "artsy" type - becasue there will be not art left to celebrate.

 

[kwanjang]

Greetings,

Paul try again the link works.

http://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html

Very interesting assesment showing clearly that Hapkido came first and KukSool and Hwrang Do were fabricated by thier perspective founders making up who taught them and the phony history to back it up.

All can say is it's really Wild!!!!

FWIW. GM Suh always claimed to have been taught by his Grandfather. In addition to that, he told me that he trained with various other martial artists for specific techniques. I never heard him tell anyone that he trained with GM Choi; however, his brother AND the late GM Pak (my teacher) both trained with GM Choi.

GM Suh also stated to me on a number of occasions that he (and several others) trained (as peer) with GM Ji, and he still considers GM Ji a good friend. I have seen the two of them interact at some of the earlier Kuk Sool tournaments in San Francisco, and they certainly seemed to be friendly.

Bottom line is that we cannot be sure of ANYTHING that is being "sold" as the true history of Hap Ki Do. There is not enough solid evidence to support the claims of any of the folks we discussed here. All we have to go by is hearsay, and that is why I go back to "looking" at how individuals do their technique. It will show up their background.

For example. Having seen Bruce on the mat a number of times, I think he has an early background in an art other than Hap Ki Do just by the way he moves. That does not mean he is not a serious Hap Ki Do practitioner now, it just feels to me that he began his journey in another place (or trained simultaneously in another art). Without knowing your background, am I right Bruce???? If not, I'll throw my idea of looking at someone right out the window lol. In any case... when I mentioned "looking", it has nothing to do with "testing" each other on the mat in combat as Kevin suggested.

 

[kwanjang]

... Now, when 20+ years later, a prominant member of one of these groups jumps ship, or was pushed, and decides to join the Hapkido bandwagon, I simply disagree.

Kevin:
I assume you are talking about me here, and I must tell you that I NEVER changed what I learned, and I teach it as I learned it from my GM the late Pak In shyuk. In fact, in my school we have the two as separate arts, and some of my students teach the Kuk Sool part. I still teach only Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do (later called Kong Shin Bup by GM Pak due to trademark issues), because it is the only art I feel comfortable in.

I joined Kuk Sool (WKSA) in 1989 to further investigate that part of my earlier certification. GM Pak left WKSA (and so did I along with him) back in the mid-seventies when there was a major shake up in WKSA. So, to reiterate what I have said all along... I never stopped training in the art that was then called Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. This was BEFORE the WKSA was started here in the US.

If you feel that, because one of the teachers of my teacher changed names, I am NOT a Hap Ki Do practitioner... not a problem for me. I just wonder what makes it different for you when it is abundantly clear that GM Choi did exactly the same thing when he switched from Daito Ryu to Yu Sool to Yawara etc. etc. So what is it exactly that you teach???

As I said before, I fear that you and I will never see eye to eye on this, and that is OK. Life is like that, and it would be pretty dull if it were not. I actually admire your loyalty to what you believe in, very few people who are so dedicated. Sort of reminds me of Carston and Hwa Rang Do We have livened up this forum with some spirited posts, informed a boatload of people with some of our ideas on the subject, and perhaps we even helped Stuart and Bruce. All of this without having a moderator jump on us. We doing OK

 

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Kevin, this line of reasoning won’t work anymore.

“…….Where have I ever made such claims? This BS about MY OPINION and MY AGENDA is just smoke for what is really going on, which is the continued watering down of the style that DID not exist in Korea prior to Choi, Yong Sul. As far as a "pure strain" - I trained in the Choi material in the UK, never found it here in the US with those I trained with and found the same material with Choi's longest training student. So, when you keep saying "nobody" knows what Choi learned or taught, changed that to "some of us (you)" because I am confident and comfortable that is what I am learning - so stop this "Choi was and enigma that no-one understood...".

Whatever you personal experience is in the end there is nothing but your opinion to support your assertion. You trained in “something” in England. Somebody told you it was Chois’ material. It happens to resemble somebody elses material. So what? You never found what you are doing anywhere else in America--- So what. Its still just circumstantial. Chois’ material can’t be “watered down” because noone has been able to identify that material in the original. Furthermore there is a growing body of anecdotal information indicating that Choi may have taught different things to different people!

As far as whether other people want to come train, as long as I know they can handle training safely both for themselves and their partners what do I care where their experience is from. My own background is with GM Myung. That’s not going to change and I am not going to foist it on anybody as some exclusive truth. You are mixing the credo-s of leadership personalities with the needs of people who want to train.


”….Now an agenda FINALLY comes out. HAPKIDO started Feb. 21, 1948 - you are the only one here that believes it went back for generations - without a thread of evidence. By the inclusion of any KMA you can somehow push the agenda that Hapkido is generic - fine, that is what you want to do - just provide that name of any one man that trained people in these techniques before Choi - a real human. Tease out one person? This is sickening - YOUR entire Hapkido training experience is with people trained by Choi or one of his students - experience in arts without this lineage are not Hapkido. MY OPINION, please, here is conjucture of the highest order.”

Hapkido is a word. It’s a good word, but it is just a word--- a label. Choi used it but adopted it from the shennanigans of his students. He also used others. Why don’t you call what you do “yawara”? Choi did. “Why don’t you call what you do “Daito Ryu Aiki ju jutsu” Choi did? How about “Hapkiyusool” or even hapkiyukwonsul”. Choi did. He used all of these at one time or another.

No, I’m sorry Kevin but you are trying to be just a bit too clever with your argument. You want to walk through the Korean experience and cherry-pick what suits you.

You want Choi as the originator of a Korean art, but the material he is best known for is not Korean.

You want the exclusivity model associated with a Japanese tradition but without the responsibility to a Japanese authority.

You want to practice only the material that was taught by Choi but are willing to view only you own particular teacher as the sole source of that materials’ authenticity.

You want to acknowledge only that time period moving forward from a date in 1948 despite the fact that people were practicing DRAJJ in Korea during the occupation (See: Stanley Pranin).

No, I’m very sorry. This smacks of the same exclusivity that any of a number of people in the Hapkido community have thrown up before. “The official line is always the same. “What I teach is authentic and what everyone else teaches is not.” This is the same old commercial ploy. “Come to my store because only I have the genuine article”.

…and people wonder why I have such an attitude about commerce and the Korean Martial Arts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

".......For example. Having seen Bruce on the mat a number of times, I think he has an early background in an art other than Hap Ki Do just by the way he moves. That does not mean he is not a serious Hap Ki Do practitioner now, it just feels to me that he began his journey in another place (or trained simultaneously in another art). Without knowing your background, am I right Bruce????...."

Unfortunately, after almost 20 years, I still have the same basic body motion I developed in Okinawan Karate. My sense is that it will be one of those artifacts that will be with me the rest of my life like the occasional "ya'll" that still pops out in the middle of a seminar or class. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

"......Sorry, missed most of the point here, but the hurtful stuff came with those that lied about who they were...Find me one other art that does not have a hierarchy, traceable lineage and founder, or reputed founder - why would Hapkido be the only art in the world that is based on generic "group" claims? Sorry, but the "hurtful ideology" has nothing to do with Choi as the founder or his students - but mainly to do with impatient westerners that clammered for rank and position and created a situation where greed could flourish. ........"

No, I honestly don't think that you did. I think you know the point quite clearly. BTW: Ship Pal Gwe is an art that has no real hierarchy or lineage but has been around for generations. If you want to be a traditional Korean martial art, you will have to eschew to use of some exclusive lineage since the Koreans never used such things. You want the Japanese approach but done in Korea so that you are not accountable to either the Korean or the Japanese culture.

"......a delineation of the lowest common denominator of any KMA that comes down the pike that wants to call itself Hapkido? ....."

Its only the Lowest Common Denominator if one is speaking in terms of "requirements", "authority" and "exclusivity". For the rest of us its a way of helping to communicate more fluently about what we do.

"......a standard of the art of Hapkido - using Hapkido as a base......" OK, then lets use MY style of Hapkido. Lets use Rudys' style of Hapkido. Lets use JR Wests' style of Hapkido. Why should we use your style? Because you say so? How come you don't want to submit the anothers' authority but thats what you have to sell to others. "Come to my store because I have the "genuine article" and everyone else is a fake." Its the same song people have been singing for years. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

... Unfortunately, after almost 20 years, I still have the same basic body motion I developed in Okinawan Karate. My sense is that it will be one of those artifacts that will be with me the rest of my life like the occasional "ya'll" that still pops out in the middle of a seminar or class. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nothing unfortunate about that my friend. You simply learned your basics well, and that is a good thing. Nevertheless, it did show up to me, and that is what I had hoped to point out. We do not need to rely on incomplete information, we CAN tell what a person does for martial arts (if that really matters).

FWIW, I accept people in NKMAA because of their need or willingness to learn, what more can a teacher want from a student regardless of their background? If GM Choi (or his teachers) had followed the "true to lineage" thinking, he would not have had some of the major Hap Ki Do players in his school. Indeed, we might not have had Hap Ki Do.

 

[American HKD]

FWIW. GM Suh always claimed to have been taught by his Grandfather. In addition to that, he told me that he trained with various other martial artists for specific techniques. I never heard him tell anyone that he trained with GM Choi; however, his brother AND the late GM Pak (my teacher) both trained with GM Choi.

GM Suh also stated to me on a number of occasions that he (and several others) trained (as peer) with GM Ji, and he still considers GM Ji a good friend. I have seen the two of them interact at some of the earlier Kuk Sool tournaments in San Francisco, and they certainly seemed to be friendly.

Bottom line is that we cannot be sure of ANYTHING that is being "sold" as the true history of Hap Ki Do. There is not enough solid evidence to support the claims of any of the folks we discussed here. All we have to go by is hearsay, and that is why I go back to "looking" at how individuals do their technique. It will show up their background.

For example. Having seen Bruce on the mat a number of times, I think he has an early background in an art other than Hap Ki Do just by the way he moves. That does not mean he is not a serious Hap Ki Do practitioner now, it just feels to me that he began his journey in another place (or trained simultaneously in another art). Without knowing your background, am I right Bruce???? If not, I'll throw my idea of looking at someone right out the window lol. In any case... when I mentioned "looking", it has nothing to do with "testing" each other on the mat in combat as Kevin suggested.

Dear Rudy,

I get it, but it's really a shame to have to be set-up as students to believe outragous myths by people who we're supposed to trust learn, character, loyalty, integrity, and honesty from.

From one perspective I see why Koreans have such a hard time following each other, after a point they all know the truth about each others lies.

I think Hapkido FWIW has less story telling than the others because Ji will simply admit Choi's Art is from Japan and the kicking is Tae-kyon he also shows teaches us material that he said "I made this up myself from expirience". Who can agrue with that!

BTW ya'll Ji said what he learned from Choi was called Yawara that's it. I asked Ji, was it Daito-Ryu? Ji said he could never prove it.

The end

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Stuart:
It IS a shame that lack of loyalty and lack of integrity is such a prominent part of Korean martial arts, because that was the part I was most attracted to. I think it is up to today's leaders to make things right.

 

[dosandojang]

It IS a shame that lack of loyalty and lack of integrity is such a prominent part of Korean martial arts, because that was the part I was most attracted to. I think it is up to today's leaders to make things right.__________________
Rudy, kwanjang



AMEN KWANG JANG NIM TIMMERMAN! AMEN!

 

[American HKD]

It IS a shame that lack of loyalty and lack of integrity is such a prominent part of Korean martial arts, because that was the part I was most attracted to. I think it is up to today's leaders to make things right.__________________
Rudy, kwanjang



AMEN KWANG JANG NIM TIMMERMAN! AMEN!

Dear dosandojang,

I'm starting to believe it's the way of Korean Martial culture.

I say that because for all intends and purposes the Korean Martial cuture only re-established itself after WW2. Before that time we know little about thier MA.

So when they put all these new MA systems together they needed a heritage to attach to, mainly for thier own Korean pride and sense of culture after many years of foriegn occupation.

It's really the only thing that make sense to me, under those circumstance I can understand why they created, fabricated many stories, and where there systems came from etc.

 

[glad2bhere]

I wish it were that cut and dried. If you want a parallel think of the history of Scotland in Western European history. Think of a country made up of tens of clans all arguing with each other. Then you get a designated king at the top but all he can do is barely keep a lid on things. As always the general population of farmers and slaves gets it in the shorts. Oh, sure, they rebel quite often but they always get put down and spend their time hoping for something better. When things finally blow-up as they did in Scotland after the loss of Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Scotish aristocracy runs off and abandons the Scottish people. Same thing happened in Korea. There was just one major screw-up. When the old Yangban families came out of hiding after WW II the Korean economy was moving towards international trade and did not depend on land-ownership. Then there was also that nasty little civil war they had.

What does this have to do with Korean martial arts? The fact is that the Koreans "like" to fuss among themselves. They don't feel completely normal if things are going too smooth. Certainly they will band together if there is a big enough outside threat, but, by and large they want to be left to themselves and their own squabbling. Its part of what happens to ANY entity that is routinely trashed by neighbors. After a while family members are a "family" in name only, but inside its everybody is jockeying for their own best advantages. (See: Michael Breen; Bruce Cummings).
Sad, but true.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

I wish it were that cut and dried. If you want a parallel think of the history of Scotland in Western European history. Think of a country made up of tens of clans all arguing with each other. Then you get a designated king at the top but all he can do is barely keep a lid on things. As always the general population of farmers and slaves gets it in the shorts. Oh, sure, they rebel quite often but they always get put down and spend their time hoping for something better. When things finally blow-up as they did in Scotland after the loss of Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Scotish aristocracy runs off and abandons the Scottish people. Same thing happened in Korea. There was just one major screw-up. When the old Yangban families came out of hiding after WW II the Korean economy was moving towards international trade and did not depend on land-ownership. Then there was also that nasty little civil war they had.

What does this have to do with Korean martial arts? The fact is that the Koreans "like" to fuss among themselves. They don't feel completely normal if things are going too smooth. Certainly they will band together if there is a big enough outside threat, but, by and large they want to be left to themselves and their own squabbling. Its part of what happens to ANY entity that is routinely trashed by neighbors. After a while family members are a "family" in name only, but inside its everybody is jockeying for their own best advantages. (See: Michael Breen; Bruce Cummings).
Sad, but true.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

I suppose it can also be as simple as capitalism and market share, who ever can show the consumers they have the best most Ancient Korean Based MA wins?

The trouble with that is I'm not sure if they were that sophisticated in marketing and business planning for the future.

I don't think Ji Han Jae was or is a good business man, but he was in the right place at the right time learning from Choi early on and the fact he became politically well connected leading him to world wide recognition. Thinking up the name Hapkido from Japanese Aikido. Mostly good luck I would say.

Who really knows?????? Just thinking out loud.

 

[glad2bhere]

I would say very much the old story of being in the right place at the right time. For me the question is what do we do now. I think the key is moderation, but that just might be the Buddhist in me coming out. All the same think about this.

On the one hand you have people slavishly advocating a particular Hapkido art or personality. At the other extreme you have folks making stuff up and calling it "hapkido". Somewhere in the middle is a "Golden Mean" of sorts. Finding it is going to depend on a few things.

One I can see right off the bat is doing away with this idea that someone or something has THE ONE TRUE WAY to practice Korean martial arts. The Koreans, themselves, have never agreed on this and they never used this approach. Why would we introduce it now.

A second point is for the Koreans to break down some of their reservations about accepting non-Koreans as equals. Yes, I fully admit that it is THEIR traditions and THEIR arts. Thats fine. I respect that and I commit myself to making sure those institutions are respected. What I need is for the Koreans to admit that sharing their traditions is not accomplished very well by them pontificating from on high and always speaking down to non-Koreans as though we haven't a clue. There are a few folks I know who do a better job of upholding some Korean institutions than a few Koreans I could name.

Lastly, we are going to have to get on the same page about what we do and how we do it. This age-old crap about "I don't like what you do, so I'm leaving and starting my own game down the street" needs to stop. It every bit as bad as the "exclusivity" I mentioned in point one. I don't have to like Pelligrini, or Lee or anyone else if I don't want to, but a blind man can see that there are a lot of people who have gotten their start in the Hapkido arts, want to further their training but don't want to find themselves having to re-train in someone elses' system to move ahead in their Hapkido career. We need to make room at the table for these folks. Now, certainly we will need to hammer out the specs and what-not, but the days of telling someone that they have to start over again and learn my way of doing things when they have their own way of doing things is bad for everyone and worse for Hapkido. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Kevin:
I assume you are talking about me here,

No sir, I was referring to Seo, In Sun. Again, I work on published reports, I don't know your history Rudy, and am not rude enough to infer otherwise. Please keep this in mind.

Sort of reminds me of Carston and Hwa Rang Do I am NOTHING like CARSTON!

We have livened up this forum with some spirited posts, informed a boatload of people with some of our ideas on the subject, and perhaps we even helped Stuart and Bruce. All of this without having a moderator jump on us. We doing OK Agreed.

Hello Bruce,

We shall continue to agree to disagree - glad we can do it civilly though - ps the mirror you gave me will get installed in the dojang next week - adds a real touch of class to my commercial establishment. (Just a jab... :ultracool )

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

I meant what I said before, and I mean it still. I think you and I are excellent models to demonstrate that folks in the Hapkido community can disagree---- even passionately---- but still work towards the good of the Hapkido arts. You know I will continue to play to my strengthes and you can rightly expect that I look for you to do the same.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Bruce,

I could not agree more.

 

[American HKD]

I would say very much the old story of being in the right place at the right time. For me the question is what do we do now. I think the key is moderation, but that just might be the Buddhist in me coming out. All the same think about this.

On the one hand you have people slavishly advocating a particular Hapkido art or personality. At the other extreme you have folks making stuff up and calling it "hapkido". Somewhere in the middle is a "Golden Mean" of sorts. Finding it is going to depend on a few things.

One I can see right off the bat is doing away with this idea that someone or something has THE ONE TRUE WAY to practice Korean martial arts. The Koreans, themselves, have never agreed on this and they never used this approach. Why would we introduce it now.

A second point is for the Koreans to break down some of their reservations about accepting non-Koreans as equals. Yes, I fully admit that it is THEIR traditions and THEIR arts. Thats fine. I respect that and I commit myself to making sure those institutions are respected. What I need is for the Koreans to admit that sharing their traditions is not accomplished very well by them pontificating from on high and always speaking down to non-Koreans as though we haven't a clue. There are a few folks I know who do a better job of upholding some Korean institutions than a few Koreans I could name.

Lastly, we are going to have to get on the same page about what we do and how we do it. This age-old crap about "I don't like what you do, so I'm leaving and starting my own game down the street" needs to stop. It every bit as bad as the "exclusivity" I mentioned in point one. I don't have to like Pelligrini, or Lee or anyone else if I don't want to, but a blind man can see that there are a lot of people who have gotten their start in the Hapkido arts, want to further their training but don't want to find themselves having to re-train in someone elses' system to move ahead in their Hapkido career. We need to make room at the table for these folks. Now, certainly we will need to hammer out the specs and what-not, but the days of telling someone that they have to start over again and learn my way of doing things when they have their own way of doing things is bad for everyone and worse for Hapkido. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

I'm for moderation that's why I think minimum standards are a good start.

The problem is some may have the belt without the skills then what?
Sir I know your a 2nd Dan were you learned but in my school you have the skill of a 6th gup sorry you can were a green belt here.

Someone from Combat HKD won't have a clue what do do in my school.

How can moderation help this or that person's feelings, problem, attitude about how Master so & so's a jerk and I'll never go to his school because he says I'm a green belt, etc?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"......I'm for moderation that's why I think minimum standards are a good start. The problem is some may have the belt without the skills then what?
Sir I know your a 2nd Dan were you learned but in my school you have the skill of a 6th gup sorry you can were a green belt here.
Someone from Combat HKD won't have a clue what do do in my school.
How can moderation help this or that person's feelings, problem, attitude about how Master so & so's a jerk and I'll never go to his school because he says I'm a green belt, etc?....................."

I guess we two have a very different ideas on relating to folks within the context of the Hapkido community.

For me, my priorities are a little different.

First off I really don't care what a persons' rank is. Its just not that important. What I need to know is what his skill level is and those two things are not necessarily the same. Yes, I know that the rank ought to give some idea of what a persons' skills might be, but we both know that can't be counted on. So instead of asking what a persons' rank is, I would ask if he is comfortable with the four basic breakfalls. I might even ask him if he is OK with air rolls. Then I would make sure he has a partner who is at about the same skill level.

Maybe the seminar is focusing on spin-kicks and the guy I am talking to has no idea of how to do a spin kick cuz his style of Hapkido doesn't do them. Would I put him with someone who can do spin-kicks? No. I put him with someone of comparable skill level and let him push the edges of his envelope with that person.

Lets take your example of an ICHF person. OK, so he has no clue about what to do. What are your options? Certainly you can embarass him by demanding that he perform only you material and the way you do it. You can also find out where you share common ground, see how he does his technique compared to how you do your technique and see if there are some ways you can help each other come out of the best part of yourselves---- together.

The question comes down to whether you can meet people on a common ground, or if the only reason you want to get together with others is to have someone to convert to your way of thinking or laud your way of doing things over. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce