Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[drop bear]

More like, you should know what you're getting into when you sign on the dotted line.

I assume the worse thing that happened is he tapped. (Just had a look. And it was the worlds friendliest arm bar)

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is sarcasm right? Sometimes it's hard to tell.

My real approach would have been to simply lower my stance like I always do. My understanding of Ninjitsu is that it's an assassination art. Which means going head to head in a grappling match is playing outside of the purpose of Ninjitsu. Sort of like saying. BJJ vs a Fencer. Rules are: No swords allow. BJJ wins. Fencing sucks. From what I've read about Ninjitsu and from what I've seen from documentaries. Ninjitsu was never created from sport perspective. It was designed to sneak around and snuff people out or to gather intel.

If I were to fight a "real ninja" my guess is that I would probably get a knife in my side once the grappling started. It's the same thing I would expect from an elite military team that is designed to do similar tasks "sneak around and snuff people out or gather intel." Just the design of the weapons pretty much show what their focus was.

Now in modern times. People try to adapt those techniques into a competition sports and for the most part it's just boils down to skills of one vs another. So much is taken out of context with the style vs style.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Small kid beats big kid.
I posted it to show the intricate beauty of a smaller person utilizing the power of Judo and Bjj to overcome a much larger opponent.
I posted it to show the intricate beauty of a smaller person utilizing the power of Mogolean Wrestling to overcome a much larger opponent.

I posted it to show the intricate beauty of a smaller person utilizing the power of Street fighting to overcome a much larger opponent.

I posted it to show the intricate beauty of a smaller person utilizing the power of Karate to overcome a much larger opponent. Hanzou is always "stirring the pot" lol.

 

[drop bear]

My real approach would have been to simply lower my stance like I always do. My understanding of Ninjitsu is that it's an assassination art. Which means going head to head in a grappling match is playing outside of the purpose of Ninjitsu. Sort of like saying. BJJ vs a Fencer. Rules are: No swords allow. BJJ wins. Fencing sucks. From what I've read about Ninjitsu and from what I've seen from documentaries. Ninjitsu was never created from sport perspective. It was designed to sneak around and snuff people out or to gather intel.

If I were to fight a "real ninja" my guess is that I would probably get a knife in my side once the grappling started. It's the same thing I would expect from an elite military team that is designed to do similar tasks "sneak around and snuff people out or gather intel." Just the design of the weapons pretty much show what their focus was.

Now in modern times. People try to adapt those techniques into a competition sports and for the most part it's just boils down to skills of one vs another. So much is taken out of context with the style vs style.

Ninjas were you average soldiers when they were tasked with doing dirty jobs.

Rather than some specialized group.

So the bjj guy could technically be a ninja if he say broke in to a house and stole something.

Modern ninjitsu is more of a perfomance art or demo art rather than a sport art.

 

[dunc]

It actually takes less time to achieve a blue belt in Bjj. Usually only about 1-2 years of continuous training.

Really?
I appreciate that each academy operates a bit differently, but I don’t know anyone at my academy who trains 2 times a week to get blue belt that quickly (people who train every day - sure)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Modern ninjitsu is more of a perfomance art or demo art rather than a sport art.

Unfortunately. I mean it's good that no one is freelancing jobs like that, but it would be nice if the functional part was still trained so that their is some historical context and knowledge that remains. At the very least turn it into a simulated competition where two teams are given the task of simulated assassination or Intel retrieval, without the lethal side of things. Give them a time table a spy cam and some room cameras. Start the game off where one or two people on the team are spies but no one knows who that is. Give them a week to perform the task, get some video edits add some history and hopefully it would be a nice history based "game show" that would highlight the difficulty in what Ninjas actually had to do.

Not sure if something like that would attract viewers though. People tend to like these ninjas. And not someone that was dressed in everyday Japanese fashion blending in with a crowd.

 

[frank raud]

They talk about that in the video info:

"This was the championship match in the gi-division. It was a 5 minute match / NAGA Rules. Nik and his brother Jeremiah were the only competitors at this event that were trained in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Judo. As far as we know, all of the other competitors were black belts in Hapkido, Ninjitsu, and Japanese Ju-jutsu. Many of us have not seen a style-vs-style tournament since the early days of the UFC, so this was a very interesting event. The gentleman Nikolas Collier faced in this video told us he won the championship match last year with a score of 35 to 0. Even though there were various styles and backgrounds competing at this event, all the participants showed great courage and sportsmanship."

So yeah....

A grappling tournament where only two competitors have BJJ and judo backgrounds? Sounds like serious competition.

 

[drop bear]

Unfortunately. I mean it's good that no one is freelancing jobs like that, but it would be nice if the functional part was still trained so that their is some historical context and knowledge that remains. At the very least turn it into a simulated competition where two teams are given the task of simulated assassination or Intel retrieval, without the lethal side of things. Give them a time table a spy cam and some room cameras. Start the game off where one or two people on the team are spies but no one knows who that is. Give them a week to perform the task, get some video edits add some history and hopefully it would be a nice history based "game show" that would highlight the difficulty in what Ninjas actually had to do.

Not sure if something like that would attract viewers though. People tend to like these ninjas. And not someone that was dressed in everyday Japanese fashion blending in with a crowd.

The mole sort of did that.

 

[frank raud]

From what position do you think something like that would work?

The struggle snuggle?

 

[Hanzou]

Really?
I appreciate that each academy operates a bit differently, but I don’t know anyone at my academy who trains 2 times a week to get blue belt that quickly (people who train every day - sure)

Uh, 2 years is a long time as a white belt, and going twice a week for 2 years is a decent amount of practice for a hobbyist or non-competitive martial artist. The average time it takes to achieve black is 10 years, which is a very long time considering that in most MAs you reach black in 3-5 years. 3-4 years as a white belt would make many people quit the system. That's like getting a stripe a year, which is absurd. Not to mention that there's still Blue, Purple, and Brown to get through, and most people quit while blue because it's an abyss all of itself.

Also just because its twice a week doesn't mean you're not doing a lot of Bjj. You could be taking 2-3 classes per session along with home practice, seminars, and privates. If you train everyday and you're extremely competition-driven you'll probably reach Brown in 5 years and black in 6-7 years.

 

[Hanzou]

A grappling tournament where only two competitors have BJJ and judo backgrounds? Sounds like serious competition.

Stop style-bashing Frank!

 

[wab25]

A grappling tournament where only two competitors have BJJ and judo backgrounds? Sounds like serious competition.

A grappling tournament where only two competitors have BJJ and Judo backgrounds... and only one of them made the Championship Match.

 

[Hanzou]

A grappling tournament where only two competitors have BJJ and Judo backgrounds... and only one of them made the Championship Match.

Ever stop to think that the Bjj player beat the other Bjj player?

It happens.

 

[Martial D]

Ever stop to think that the Bjj player beat the other Bjj player?

It happens.

We call those sorts of situations "first round finals"

 

[frank raud]

Stop style-bashing Frank!

There is other footage from this same tournament where the same "kid" beats a 6 th dan Hapkido . Again, no age category, no weight category, no rank category. Curious how it is under NAGA rules.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Uh, 2 years is a long time as a white belt, and going twice a week for 2 years is a decent amount of practice for a hobbyist or non-competitive martial artist. The average time it takes to achieve black is 10 years, which is a very long time considering that in most MAs you reach black in 3-5 years. 3-4 years as a white belt would make many people quit the system. That's like getting a stripe a year, which is absurd. Not to mention that there's still Blue, Purple, and Brown to get through, and most people quit while blue because it's an abyss all of itself.

Also just because its twice a week doesn't mean you're not doing a lot of Bjj. You could be taking 2-3 classes per session along with home practice, seminars, and privates. If you train everyday and you're extremely competition-driven you'll probably reach Brown in 5 years and black in 6-7 years.

I will point out that the average time to black belt is based on a small sample size of people who had the fortitude and determination to actually make it that far though. Your non-athletic hobbyist, who might train twice a week, and who might never reach black belt (probably a much larger sample size of this group) is going to stay at white belt much longer in comparison. My instructor did not reach brown belt in 5 years, and some of my teammates spent a solid 2 years or more at white belt.
Most blue belts, at 2 years in, would likely not have the standup skill this 135 pound kid displays here without cross training some Judo too. But either way, if only with 1-2 years of serious BJJ training, this kid would have spent more time working on fundamentals like side control > mount > armbar that he used here than a Ninjitsu black belt likely ever has. Does it make the black belt look pathetic? No. Does it demonstrate BJJ as a very effective as grappling method? Most definitely.

 

[Yokozuna514]

We have a saying at our dojo, "the tatami doesn't lie". Regardless of the colour of belt around your waist, your performance on the mat will reflect the effort you put into your training. Thus, a blue belt that trains religiously could beat a black belt who doesn't in a single roll but it should not happen on a regular basis. If it does and I was the black belt, I would question my training.

Each opportunity to test yourself against an opponent is an opportunity to see the truth in your training. Everyone loses a match once in awhile but it is what you do after the loss that is important. Persistence and perseverance as in the Japanese Proverb "Fall down seven times get up eight " is how I encourage everyone to view a defeat. If you want to be better, train.

 

[Hanzou]

There is other footage from this same tournament where the same "kid" beats a 6 th dan Hapkido . Again, no age category, no weight category, no rank category. Curious how it is under NAGA rules.

I've been at small competitions where this has happened. If the number of competitors is low, people will compete with weight disparities so that their day and money isnt wasted. Sometimes women will compete against men, and you'll see crazy weight disparities like the one in the video. All parties have to agree of course.

 

[Steve]

You mean the fight where the dude lays on his back the whole fight and kicks Ali's legs?

Not sure we can call that wrestling...

It was the result of Ali negotiating a very restrictive rule set and still getting messed up by inoki. The entire event is in YouTube and is a cool look back at a bizarre spectacle from the 70s.

 

[dunc]

Uh, 2 years is a long time as a white belt, and going twice a week for 2 years is a decent amount of practice for a hobbyist or non-competitive martial artist. The average time it takes to achieve black is 10 years, which is a very long time considering that in most MAs you reach black in 3-5 years. 3-4 years as a white belt would make many people quit the system. That's like getting a stripe a year, which is absurd. Not to mention that there's still Blue, Purple, and Brown to get through, and most people quit while blue because it's an abyss all of itself.

Also just because its twice a week doesn't mean you're not doing a lot of Bjj. You could be taking 2-3 classes per session along with home practice, seminars, and privates. If you train everyday and you're extremely competition-driven you'll probably reach Brown in 5 years and black in 6-7 years.

10 years average to get a BJJ black belt equates to 2 &1/2 years at each belt before that I think. So the average mid level BJJ blue will have been training for 3-4 years

My point is that comparing belt colours across styles is apples and oranges

The mat time that the guy has had to achieve a blue in BJJ and brown in Judo is probably a lot more than it'd take a guy to get black in ninjutsu, AND the skill sets are different (eg next to no ground work in ninjutsu)

Having said that I don't know what dan grade the guy in the video is or how much mat time he's put in. Kudos to him for having a go, but his movement certainly wasn't very well developed