Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[Michele123]

Reading this thread makes me want to stay away from any BJJ studies because that kind of condescending attitude is not where I want to spend my time.

While I do hope someday to have the financial means to study a grappling art, (a guest instructor taught a few classes of jujitsu at my Karate club back in the 1990's and I loved it) I have now crossed BJJ off the potential list. If BJJ needs that much negativity toward others to promote itself, well, it must be compensating for something.


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[Hanzou]

The mat time that the guy has had to achieve a blue in BJJ and brown in Judo is probably a lot more than it'd take a guy to get black in ninjutsu, AND the skill sets are different (eg next to no ground work in ninjutsu)

Actually, Ninjutsu and Toshindo has ground fighting now. They call it Earth Style (or something) and they say its awesome. Here's Masaaki Hatsumi doing some:

Here's Toshindo folks learning how to pass the guard (for some reason):

 

[dunc]

Hmm I dunno about toshindo, but the bujinkan has next to no ground fighting - probably less than 5% of the curriculum
You'll be hard pressed to find many other clips of Hatsumi doing newaza amongst the 1,000s of other videos of him out there

The second clip isn't toshindo, it's a bujinkan guy who's also a BJJ black belt - called Simon Yeo

 

[Hanzou]

Hmm I dunno about toshindo, but the bujinkan has next to no ground fighting - probably less than 5% of the curriculum
You'll be hard pressed to find many other clips of Hatsumi doing newaza amongst the 1,000s of other videos of him out there

5% isn't "next to nothing", and I've seen a lot of Bujinkan folks doing ground fighting. Maybe not Hatsumi himself (though after watching that video, he probably shouldn't do anymore), but there's plenty of Ninjutsu practitioners doing it.

Here's one such example:

They claim those movements come directly from their kata.

As for Toshindo, yeah they have an entire portion of their art dedicated to ground fighting.

The second clip isn't toshindo, it's a bujinkan guy who's also a BJJ black belt - called Simon Yeo

That probably explains why it looks competent. I still don't know why you would teach guard passing in a non-sport dojo, unless you want your ninjas to compete.

 

[dunc]

Probably I'm trying to make my point in a clumsy manner - apologies

The technical curriculum in the Bujinkan, which comes from old Japanese schools of budo, contains very little ground fighting
Ground fighting accounts for around 5% of the curriculum and all of it involves strikes as a core part of the set ups

So when you compare the ground fighting skills of someone who's been training in the Bujinkan (5% of mat time on ground fighting) for say 5 years, they will likely be comparable to someone who has been training BJJ (say 80% ground fighting) for 2.5 months

Hence the result in the OP's video clip is rather predictable

There are some dojos who are incorporating ground fighting into their curriculum. The sensible ones are cross training BJJ to do this, the not-so-sensible ones are making up stuff

 

[frank raud]

I've been at small competitions where this has happened. If the number of competitors is low, people will compete with weight disparities so that their day and money isnt wasted. Sometimes women will compete against men, and you'll see crazy weight disparities like the one in the video. All parties have to agree of course.

he gentleman Nikolas Collier faced in this video told us he won the championship match last year with a score of 35 to 0. Even though there were various styles and backgrounds competing at this event, all the participants showed great courage and sportsmanship."

Absolutely, there are small tournaments where not many people show up. I know, try being a 50 year old heavyweight orange belt in a judo competition. If the tournament was won the previous year by the ninjer with a perfect score, and the following year only two competitors with judo/bjj backgrounds (conveniently brothers) show up, I'm pretty sure this is not a NAGA competition. There is enough martial arts in Knoxville and the surrounding area that it shouldn't be difficult to attract some caliber of talent.

 

[Hanzou]

Absolutely, there are small tournaments where not many people show up. I know, try being a 50 year old heavyweight orange belt in a judo competition. If the tournament was won the previous year by the ninjer with a perfect score, and the following year only two competitors with judo/bjj backgrounds (conveniently brothers) show up, I'm pretty sure this is not a NAGA competition. There is enough martial arts in Knoxville and the surrounding area that it shouldn't be difficult to attract some caliber of talent.

So you think there's some shannagains at work Frank beyond a Bjj kid beating a grown up Ninja at a grappling tournament?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Reading this thread makes me want to stay away from any BJJ studies because that kind of condescending attitude is not where I want to spend my time.

While I do hope someday to have the financial means to study a grappling art, (a guest instructor taught a few classes of jujitsu at my Karate club back in the 1990's and I loved it) I have now crossed BJJ off the potential list. If BJJ needs that much negativity toward others to promote itself, well, it must be compensating for something.


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Its only a select few. All the bjj practitioners ive met in purpose dont share that negativity towards other arts. Most actually cross train in something else

 

[pdg]

Reading this thread makes me want to stay away from any BJJ studies because that kind of condescending attitude is not where I want to spend my time.

While I do hope someday to have the financial means to study a grappling art, (a guest instructor taught a few classes of jujitsu at my Karate club back in the 1990's and I loved it) I have now crossed BJJ off the potential list. If BJJ needs that much negativity toward others to promote itself, well, it must be compensating for something.

I wouldn't cross it off your list if you want to study grappling tbh.

Like many things, it's extremely effective - with the right training.

Unfortunately, it's this art's turn to have a few very vocal 'supporters' that feel the need to try to talk everything else down...

Find a decent teacher who doesn't try to make him/herself look better by saying everything else is crap and I'm quite sure there's much to gain from it.

 

[frank raud]

So you think there's some shannagains at work Frank beyond a Bjj kid beating a grown up Ninja at a grappling tournament?

You mean beside the large crowd of two children, who are out numbered by the score table, or the ref being the hapkido guy previously beaten? The Collier brothers post a lot of videos of them, but its just them, no students or teachers, and then "competition" footage like this.

 

[drop bear]

You mean beside the large crowd of two children, who are out numbered by the score table, or the ref being the hapkido guy previously beaten? The Collier brothers post a lot of videos of them, but its just them, no students or teachers, and then "competition" footage like this.

Yeah I say tentively.

I looked up the comp and it is to a certain degree a bit of an all styles event. But then we have similar and some pretty decent grapplers turn up.

Apparently we had a krav instructor turn up to one of ours. So good luck to them.

The point of these competitions is to turn up and get smashed. So you can take home some experience. Especially hits because it is the least likely to get hurt.

Unless you just refuse to tap. Like some of our guys.

The bjjer in question was really nice with that arm bar so honestly good on him for that as well.

I just don't see anyone being the worse off as a martial artist or a person from that video.

I also never expected the ninja to win . Generally you need a complete revamp of your training structure to win fights or competitions.

 

[drop bear]

Probably I'm trying to make my point in a clumsy manner - apologies

The technical curriculum in the Bujinkan, which comes from old Japanese schools of budo, contains very little ground fighting
Ground fighting accounts for around 5% of the curriculum and all of it involves strikes as a core part of the set ups

So when you compare the ground fighting skills of someone who's been training in the Bujinkan (5% of mat time on ground fighting) for say 5 years, they will likely be comparable to someone who has been training BJJ (say 80% ground fighting) for 2.5 months

Hence the result in the OP's video clip is rather predictable

There are some dojos who are incorporating ground fighting into their curriculum. The sensible ones are cross training BJJ to do this, the not-so-sensible ones are making up stuff

If you don't do ground fighting as a methodology you should be wrestling not bjj by the way.

Because they do take down defense fight for top position and try to stand back up.

 

[drop bear]

Reading this thread makes me want to stay away from any BJJ studies because that kind of condescending attitude is not where I want to spend my time.

While I do hope someday to have the financial means to study a grappling art, (a guest instructor taught a few classes of jujitsu at my Karate club back in the 1990's and I loved it) I have now crossed BJJ off the potential list. If BJJ needs that much negativity toward others to promote itself, well, it must be compensating for something.


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Do sambo. Then you can be condescending of bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

If you don't do ground fighting as a methodology you should be wrestling not bjj by the way.

Because they do take down defense fight for top position and try to stand back up.

They'll never do that because they want to claim that ground fighting is native to their MA system, but was just hidden within the kata. Thus they'll stick to BJJ because they think it's just Judo newaza (i.e. Asian).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you don't do ground fighting as a methodology you should be wrestling not bjj by the way.

Because they do take down defense fight for top position and try to stand back up.

Good point.

 

[drop bear]

They'll never do that because they want to claim that ground fighting is native to their MA system, but was just hidden within the kata. Thus they'll stick to BJJ because they think it's just Judo newaza (i.e. Asian).

Yeah I am off that whole concept by the way. Martial arts are a made up thing. The differences occur only in people's heads.

What I mean is what is and isn't part of someone's style occurs entirely in the mind of that person.

So let's just use the best tool for the job.

 

[Hanzou]

Do sambo. Then you can be condescending of bjj.

Speaking of which, how's Sambo doing in Australia? It's pretty much DOA in the states.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The mole sort of did that.

I learned something new. It made it 5 seasons so that's good lol. I'll have to give it a quick look to see how they set things up to make it entertaining. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They call it Earth Style (or something) and they say its awesome

I'll answer give a response to this one for you. I'm not a grappling guy but those videos are questionable. Now take it with the understanding that I'm not a grappling guy and there's 90% chance I don't know what I'm looking at.,, but hmmm that 10% certainty is looking pretty solid. It's just the mechanics of it all. After paying attention to body mechanics some stuff just makes you wonder "Have they really tried the technique that they are showing in a demo?"

but there's plenty of Ninjutsu practitioners doing it.

My guess is that this is new stuff added. The entire concept of being stealthy is to do the job quickly and not wrestle on the ground for 3 minutes and hope no one comes by. Even 1 minute is enough time to yell for help and to attract attention. Mobility would be a must for anyone sneaking around trying to get in and get out. Not saying you are wrong, but my guess is that it's probably something that was added. Sort of like how some striking schools add BJJ components because the striking system had limited ground fighting.

Not every system has a dedicated ground fighting component. If a person is on a battlefield or village skirmish, then you can lay on the ground if you like and hope the other side doesn't come to the aid of their fellow soldier. And you can hope that you won't get a knife in you t while you try to get off the ground after being tangled up with your enemy.

Things have to be taken into context and people just need to except if their system is limited on ground fighting instead of just making stuff up, just for the purpose of saying "yeah we we do that, ground fighting stuff"

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you don't do ground fighting as a methodology you should be wrestling not bjj by the way.

Because they do take down defense fight for top position and try to stand back up.

More and more these days I’m trying to include that approach in the BJJ I teach. It’s important to know how to work from the bottom when you have to, but it shouldn’t be your default in most situations.