MMA vs TaiChi

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Hanzou

Hanzou

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He fell down because he had really bad footwork. We have seen competitors from various styles including Tai Chi who have better foot work than that. We have even seen untrained fighters with better footwork. This guy is just not a good representation of Tai Chi or Chinese martial arts in general. This fight wouldn't have gotten the publicity that it's getting had he not boasted and claimed himself as a "Tai Chi Master." It's no different than someone claiming to be a Master in BJJ and then show up and perform horribly against someone who trained themselves to fight.

When someone beats another who claims to be an expert or master, then it damages the perception of the defeated system. The problem with TMA is that many people try to make excuses for the practitioner instead of just coming out and saying the truth. The fighter had no fighting or sparring experience and because of that lost the fight in a disgraceful way after claiming to be a Master.

My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?
 

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The guy in the video did not train to use Tai Chi for self-defense or sparring environments. This was clear at the start. There's no need to defend him or the art of Tai Chi because it wasn't a good representation of what Tai Chi competitive or self-defense focused practitioners do. It's better to call it out for what it was than to defend him as if he was a good representation of Tai Chi applications.
He wasn't a good representative of taijiquan, as in Chen taijiquan we would clinch and then throw if rushed like that. Chen taijiquan is very big on wrestling.
 

oaktree

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He fell down because he had really bad footwork. We have seen competitors from various styles including Tai Chi who have better foot work than that. We have even seen untrained fighters with better footwork. This guy is just not a good representation of Tai Chi or Chinese martial arts in general. This fight wouldn't have gotten the publicity that it's getting had he not boasted and claimed himself as a "Tai Chi Master." It's no different than someone claiming to be a Master in BJJ and then show up and perform horribly against someone who trained themselves to fight.

When someone beats another who claims to be an expert or master, then it damages the perception of the defeated system. The problem with TMA is that many people try to make excuses for the practitioner instead of just coming out and saying the truth. The fighter had no fighting or sparring experience and because of that lost the fight in a disgraceful way after claiming to be a Master.
His footwork moved first back then at an angle causing his fall but is it possible the punch also made him fall sure why not or visa versa point is we see this same type in mma ring fights which the OP doesn't seem to point out. So then it goes back to OK if this happens in pro fights people slipping or getting punched like this does that mean a.pro fighters suck b.this guy is good or c. The better regardless of style fighter won.
The taijiquan community really doesn't give a **** about this and five years no one else will give a **** about it either.
 

oaktree

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My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?
No effect at all fanboy
 

Kung Fu Wang

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My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?
As a CMA guy, my answer will be it's important for any CMA guy to develop

1. entering strategy - Can you move in fast enough without been hit?
2. finish strategy - Can you knock/take your opponent down fast?
 

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His footwork moved first back then at an angle causing his fall but is it possible the punch also made him fall sure why not or visa versa point is we see this same type in mma ring fights which the OP doesn't seem to point out. So then it goes back to OK if this happens in pro fights people slipping or getting punched like this does that mean a.pro fighters suck b.this guy is good or c. The better regardless of style fighter won.
The taijiquan community really doesn't give a **** about this and five years no one else will give a **** about it either.
No one gives a **** about it now apart from the op. similiar things were said in 73 that Kung fu was so superior and other traditional arts will die out. It was said again 93 with nonsense like oh karate will soon be extinct now or no one will bother to train striking anymore but guess what karates still going just as strong as ever. Silly little matches being made by some spoiled rich kid in china will make 0 difference to anything. Simply no one cares. The people training in Chinese martial arts will continue to do so and people who are interested in them will still join. Quite honestly I bet barely anyone's even heard about this nonsense in the non martial art world
 

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Missed most of the discussion, but just watched the original video.

Close one, could have gone either way. I thought he had him there for a moment.
 

JowGaWolf

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My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?
Oh it's going to have a really big effect. For me it's going to make it more difficult for me to attract people who are interested in martial arts. On the good side, it's going to clean house for CMAs in the long run. I think the more fake CMA masters give bad impressions the more likely the real CMA practitioners who train with a fighting focus will start to appear.

I'm even starting to see more Jow Ga schools showcase their sparring and fighting abilities. Some schools have always done so but others have stayed in the dark. With things like this I think the Jow Ga schools don't want to be lumped in. Things like this is becoming more common in terms of Jow Ga practitioners trying to show that what we do is the real thing.
 

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No one gives a **** about it now apart from the op. similiar things were said in 73 that Kung fu was so superior and other traditional arts will die out. It was said again 93 with nonsense like oh karate will soon be extinct now or no one will bother to train striking anymore but guess what karates still going just as strong as ever. Silly little matches being made by some spoiled rich kid in china will make 0 difference to anything. Simply no one cares. The people training in Chinese martial arts will continue to do so and people who are interested in them will still join. Quite honestly I bet barely anyone's even heard about this nonsense in the non martial art world
That is true. I really don't think to many people really give a **** about this in China as well.
 

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That is true. I really don't think to many people really give a **** about this in China as well.
Of course they don't. The only ones who actually care are the mma fanboys who want to rub it in other people's faces about how great mma is and yeah sure mmas good but it's not the be all and end all either. Arts like tai chi and Kung fu or whatever have been around thousands of years and still going strong even with all the advanced knowledge of martial arts. Why can't both just exist and people be happy with that. Would people like the op rather all other martial arts die out and then there's only mma left and that means less and less would train martial arts because a lot of people who train different styles simply don't want to do that kind of thing.
 

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Oh it's going to have a really big effect. For me it's going to make it more difficult for me to attract people who are interested in martial arts. On the good side, it's going to clean house for CMAs in the long run. I think the more fake CMA masters give bad impressions the more likely the real CMA practitioners who train with a fighting focus will start to appear.

I'm even starting to see more Jow Ga schools showcase their sparring and fighting abilities. Some schools have always done so but others have stayed in the dark. With things like this I think the Jow Ga schools don't want to be lumped in. Things like this is becoming more common in terms of Jow Ga practitioners trying to show that what we do is the real thing.
I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, I think most Taijiquan people are happy that people think Taijiquan is just some dance devoid of martial arts.
Most people do not even know this side of Taijiquan is possible
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Missed most of the discussion, but just watched the original video.

Close one, could have gone either way. I thought he had him there for a moment.
The MMA guy understood the "run down" strategy very well.

If you

- kick me, I'll run you down,
- punch me, I'll run you down,
- do nothing, I'll still run you down.
 

JowGaWolf

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His footwork moved first back then at an angle causing his fall but is it possible the punch also made him fall sure why not or visa versa point is we see this same type in mma ring fights which the OP doesn't seem to point out. So then it goes back to OK if this happens in pro fights people slipping or getting punched like this does that mean a.pro fighters suck b.this guy is good or c. The better regardless of style fighter won.
The taijiquan community really doesn't give a **** about this and five years no one else will give a **** about it either.
Backpedaling for more than a couple of steps is just bad footwork and when people do it, they usually fall down or get hit with something that easily knocks them down because their feet were in the worse possible position to resist the imbalance caused by the punch. Wing practitioners often knock their opponents over when their opponent starts backpedals longer than they should.

The taijiquan community that only practices for health purposes won't care, as they never claim to be dangerous or skilled fighters. They let you know right from the start that they don't train to fight. Communities like that won't ever be hurt by videos like this. The ones who will be hurt are those who market their martial arts as a form of self-defense. Why would a student learn self-defense from a person who did such a poor job in defending himself?

If you teach Taijiquan just for health benefits then fighting videos have nothing to do with how you train. People still talk about Gracie and the early days of UFC 1. In the Jow Ga communities people still talk about about how the founder won a contest of 100 fighters. Things like the video will be around longer than you think, because there will always be an MMA fan boy who is more than happy to remind you of it.
 

JowGaWolf

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I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, I think most Taijiquan people are happy that people think Taijiquan is just some dance devoid of martial arts.
Most people do not even know this side of Taijiquan is possible
A very valid and realistic observation about Taijiquan. Even to day I hear people including Chinese refer to it as "the thing old people do."

I actually had more injuries in Tai Chi sparring than in Jow Ga sparring. My sparring partners enjoyed attacking the elbows. For a while I though my elbows were permanently damaged from the abuse that they took.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The MMA guy understood the "run down" strategy very well.

If you

- kick me, I'll run you down,
- punch me, I'll run you down,
- do nothing, I'll still run you down.
The MMA guy understood who he was facing had no clue what he was doing and he took advantage of that.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, ...
The first day that I started my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- 7 star stance,
- stealing step stance,
- 40-60 stance,

Those stances that will be used in the 108 moves Chang Taiji form later on. When I explained those stances, one guy stood up, said, "This is not Taiji". He then left. I had never seen him since then.

In

- ball room dancing, you start from fox step, box step, ... In ball room dancing, you may not need to switch your steps.
- Taiji training, you start from horse stance, bow-arrow stance, ... In Taiji training, you do need to be able to shift from one stance into another.

Even today, I still don't know why that guy didn't give me a chance to show him all the stances that will be used in the Taiji system. I can only say, "Taiji guys are weird."
 

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The first day that I started my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- 7 star stance,
- stealing step stance,
- 40-60 stance,

Those stances that will be used in the 108 moves Chang Taiji form later on. When I explained those stances, one guy stood up, said, "This is not Taiji". He then left. I had never seen him since then.

In

- ball room dancing, you start from fox step, box step, ... In ball room dancing, you may not need to switch your steps.
- Taiji training, you start from horse stance, bow-arrow stance, ... In Taiji training, you do need to be able to shift from one stance into another.

Even today, I still don't know why that guy didn't give me a chance to show him all the stances that will be used in the Taiji system. I can only say, "Taiji guys are weird."
My first class was the first 3 steps in Chen Laojia
 
OP
Hanzou

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I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, I think most Taijiquan people are happy that people think Taijiquan is just some dance devoid of martial arts.
Most people do not even know this side of Taijiquan is possible

We've already seen this.

Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;


That form of grappling is simply lacking compared to where grappling currently is within the sphere of modern submission grappling.
 

CB Jones

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No disrespect

but the throws at 48 seconds and 1.18 looked fake to me. Big guy just intentionally goes down. Is that just me?

FWIW the the throws in the 1st video looked more real.
 

CB Jones

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We've already seen this.

Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;


That form of grappling is simply lacking compared to where grappling currently is within the sphere of modern submission grappling.


What does a video of one of the top grapplers in a grappling only training session prove?
 

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