Despite style vs style wars and art stereotypes,why RBSD,military,and street versions so similar?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bullsherdog, May 15, 2019.

  1. Bullsherdog

    Bullsherdog Yellow Belt

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    As seen all the time on reddit's martial arts section and other various fighting forums, people are always arguing style vs style or talking about stereotypes of an art such as TKD relying on fancy kicks and jump attacks, Muay Thai using hard bat roundhouse, BJJ relying on pins in contrast to Judo's focus on throws, Savate using kicks and punches, etc etc etc........



    On thing I notice is that the RBSD and military versions of an art and esp the street version (or at least streetfighters who practise primarily the one style or its main techniques)..................



    Tend to USE FAR MORE COMMON principles in fighting than the stereotypes of the styles they practise. For example I saw a TKD instructor in a documentary who was in the Korean SF and now teaches RBSD. Rather than using the high jump kicks that many martial artists on this subreddit esp MMA proponents criticize TKD using, he just went straight to the point and took the guy down using a throw and following with a pinning to the ground.



    I also saw some Thai military practising on Youtube and they used the exact same move the TKD instructor used-rather than throwing elbow swings, they quickly did a take down technique as they were sparing with each other. I saw French police techniques a while back on Human Weapon on the Savate episode and they too practised the same exact move during one of the training session. In addition there was a Yakuza fight and a Yakuza used the same technique and I could have sworn I saw a clip once of prisoners doing the same move........



    In addition when the TKD instructor was demonstrating strikes he focused far more on knees and low-kicks, some of them even looking exactly like Savate kicks esp the Coup de Pied Bas and the knees was relying on many principles of Muay Thai (esp the clinch in the first few blows) and he ended the sparring session with a rear naked choke, something not typically used among TKD fighters but a standard BJJ move.......



    I bring this up because I notice when they fight for real outside the ring rather than sticking to stereotypes such as straight karate punches or the use of quick slippery footwork as the prime defense against kicks on Savate, practically every hardened street fighter, military, and RBSD versions of an art rely on extremely "get to the point" techniques. I mean I read about an incident in France where a gang member who specializing in Savate instead of throwing kicks or punches, just grabbed his victim and smashed his skull on a table. In the exact same manner you typically see prisoners do in youtube vids and documentary in American max security fights. A technique also I seen in a documentary about a Japanese cop warning that Yakuza and other thugs might do to rookie police who just graduated from the academy. Which my dad had done a few times when I was acting like a cocky ******* (though he controlled the force to just pain me instead of breaking my head into two and he slammed my head on a wall not a table) and might I add my dad is in the Army National Guard and practises combatives.



    Basically I notice in the realistic "fight for survival version" of a martial arts and among many practitioners of an art who actually frequently fought in the streets at one point of their life, they don't stick to trying to use stereotypes such as open hand strikes so associated with Silat and instead they just get fuckin ASAP to the point. I mean in addition to the TKD instructor throwing MT style blows and lower kicks resembling Savate I seen a friend who practises Kyokushin doe the exact same thing where he primarily kneed the guy and used kicks to sweep him down (not necessarily Savate kicks-actually karate but he used the basic principle in Savate of ending a fight by disrupting his legs). While he did not choke the person after the knees and low kicks swept him to the ground, he pinned him on top in a similar manner your typical manner that a trained fighter would if he was trying to choke someone.

    I had to ask how come once you start getting into "real fighting" for lack of better words, plenty of stereotypes from the flailing flowery movements of Tai Chi to the acrobatics of Capoeira disappear? I mean with how much many martial artists on /r/martialarts, Bullshido, and other martial arts message boards argue fanatically about how "traditional Hapkido does not rely on kneeing!" or "real Capoeira relies on dancing movement and acrobatic attacks" and all the style vs style arguments criticizing TKD as impractical for relying too much on high kicks or Karate being too rigid and reliant on straight attacks, you'd think expert level martial artists would fight akin to their style's popular stereotypes. Instead what I seen and read seems to be practitioners of every style prefer to use straight forward common sense moves from getting a beer bottle and whacking a guy on the head with it to tackling a guy and pinning him on the wall with both choking or slamming him on the wall while also kneeing him or some other mundane attack!



    Can anyone explain why out on the street hardened fighters despite specializing in one style such a BJJ prefer to use techniques far beyond what they teach at a typical gym or dojo teaching the style? And why practically every fighter be they army combatives instructors or Arnis Filipinos end up using extremely basic movements and ending a fight ASAP? Its as though style vs style doesn't exist in real fighting on the streets and fighters who never trained in several styles somehow can knee as hard as a pro MT kickboxer or dodge attacks with fluid footwork commonly found in Savate and using backslap motions and other flowery moves of Tai Chi! I mean seeing a Yakuza guy do a backwards spinning elbow move in Deadliest Warrior was extremely shocking!



    Why is this? Does this mean in reality, style vs style is an extremely pointless thing and style stereotypes are not true despite how internet arguments always emphasize?
     
  2. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You answer it at the end. 95% of style bs style is pointless, and a lot of those stereotypes are just that-stereotypes. Not necessarily based in fact.
     
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  3. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest two arms, two legs, how much difference do you expect?
     
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  4. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    So a former TKD instructor, who now teaches something else, didn't do a TKD kick, but something from the new style he teaches? Definitely proves your point.

    You already did your patented wall of text on how come so many kicks look like Savate. The consensus here, and everywhere else you cut and pasted is that kicking in a boot is going to look like a style that kicks with a boot, like, say, Savate. For clarification, is this the same TKD instructor who no longer teaches TKD, but something else? Could that just maybe be why he wasn't doing things you recognize as TKD?
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    unless you can finish a fight with a single punch or move, then there a significant likely hood that the, fight will be won by the fittest combatant, that's fights were both are trained and or competent, if your fighting no hopers or drunks different rules aapply, to that end its fitness rather than style that the defining factor in inter stylearguments.

    if your fighting for your life against someone who is capable, then you want to rely on high % simplistic techniques hit them , hurt them , leave quickly, theres no extra points for artistic meritsThat if you can even choose a technique, you need to fight from where you are and hit/ twist what ever is in range, so your making it up on the fly in a 10th of a sesecond , if all you can do is ram your finger down his ear, then that the correct technique to use.

    nb it's really hard to bang someone's head in to a table unless they are asleep or drunk, and theres no such thing as " streetfighters" well not outside of video games, the idea that there are highly trained and conditioned ma roaming the streets looking for fights is just nonsence
     
  6. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    But, but, but, he saw it on a TV show. It was called Deadliest Warrior, so you know it has to be legit .
     
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Your dad smashed your head against a wall? Wow.

    My dad never did that to me. I’ve never done that to my son...
     
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  8. Bullsherdog

    Bullsherdog Yellow Belt

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    He didn't smash my head but he banged it to keep me from raging and vandalizing the house. When I get drunk I tend to become crazy and very violent lol.
     
  9. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    ...It may be smart for you to either stop drinking, or stop training, or both...
     
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  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is a complicated multiple part question. And a lot of it defies observable logic.

    People go basically insane when it comes to RBSD. And I think this is because instead of drawing from personal experience of resistance training which creates a depth of knowledge and a certain way of processing information.

    They rely on dogma and appeal to authority and basically throw out everything that makes sense in fighting.

    I have seen MMAers do this. Guys who can fight just turn around and teach the craziest stuff due to a perceived set of rule changes. And possibly the desire to provide instant gratification.

    And quite often all concept of depth becomes lost.

    (The throw would be Osotogari?)
    Which is an interesting discussion on its own.

     
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not sure why you’d “lol” after an admission like that.
     
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  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Otherwise (And this was another part of this discussion)

    You do see specialists, specialising in street fights.

    Hell. There are BJJers jumping guard and doing heel hooks. There is a whole head kick compilation out there. Boxers box and so on.

    So that is not accurate as it might be perceived. But not an uncommon preconception.
     
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  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  14. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    As you cut and paste your wall o' text elsewhere, I am curious who else would describe DK Yoo as a "TKD instructor"?
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    If he is the model I can see why there is the disconnect between theory and application.

    And yeah. Don't be a training dummy for people to tee off on you.

     
  16. Rat

    Rat Black Belt

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    Most militaries tend to use a similar skill set in their training anyway. Pending if its for aggression or combat or a mix given they spend most of their time training to use firearms (for obvious reasons) Fighting not really that special, culture just determines how you do it and a few other factors. Only so many ways you can move your body and then a even less amount of ways you can maximize skill retention, with damage given to received. And simple is often what you remember and all you need to win in the safest manner.


    A good thing i read as a good point though a element of martial arts training is to train your attributes. (which is apparent and admitted by plenty of kung fu persons and TMA people that a element is for fitness, health etc) Only thing i would say for style is, it determines their training methodology and how they go about it. Like your not going to go to a modern Judo school if you want to learn to box or vice versa. And medieval England is very different from medieval japan or the Philippines so fourth both in culture and technology and environment and resources. And they are quite different in modernity.

    I still find it kind of a shame HEMA has kind of died out/been sportinised to the extent it was. At least a lot of systems and such have been lost to the ages to be reconstructed. Thats just more my historical preservation mode kicking in.

    Oh i kind of went TL;DR so i probbly rehashed plenty of points. :p
     
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    one of those " street fights " appears to be in a gym .?

    the other is most probably in a road, are there vids of actual street fights, on a street .?
     
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  18. Rat

    Rat Black Belt

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    As far as i know, street means the road/pedestrian foot way bit in large. And in the spirit of the word means in context, it just means without rules so gym is acceptable. :p

    Its common in England to refer to a path as a road as large if it has a road running next to it anyway.

    Also i am now conning the term "grammar-fu" when we argue English for this forum.
     
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  19. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    British definition of 'street' ( not the town of Street which is a really nice place) is a road in a city or town that has buildings that are usually close together along one or both sides.
     
  20. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Jesse Enkamp, the self-identified "Karate Nerd" on Youtube, had an interesting discussion of the different styles of Karate. In his video, he basically looked at Martial Arts like climbing a mountain. There's only one peak, but there are several paths to get there.

    Speaking for Taekwondo, we are actually a lot more balanced than you would think. Despite being the "kicking art" and our sport focusing mainly on kicks, the first things you'll learn in Taekwondo are usually horse stance punching, and basic blocks (which are usually dealing with punches). I've made other threads that examine this more in-depth, but the kata in Taekwondo have very few kicks in them, they are almost exclusively blocks and hand strikes.

    The question here for Taekwondo is then down to what school you go to, not what art you do. Some schools are belt factories, others are sport competition teams. Some schools get more into self defense. At my school, we train:
    • Defense against a punch, kick, or grab, which usually involves a sweep of some sort
    • Hand grab defense which borders on hapkido and uses a lot of wrist locks and arm control
    • Lots of punch combinations in addition to our kicking curriculum
    Do we grapple to the level that someone in wrestling, BJJ, hapkido, or judo would? No. Do we punch as much as a boxer would? No.

    But we train for things that are outside the realm of just kicks. Kicks just happen to be our focus and the thing we do better than almost every other art.
     
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