Just wondering.

[TKDTony2179]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRXXFwdpOWw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This video is as close to what we teach won hyo. Notice no ready stance like the ITF. Maybe that is why my school do different tuls because of the many Koreans came to the U.S. and made small changes in forms.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Ok Earl my man. I looked at 80 and 81 and to me a pressing kick is just a low side kick. Rather you use a ready stance A or stork stance or whatever stance you want in an altercation, rest of world will say low side kick is the same as a pressing kick and piercing kick is the same as a side kick to the body. .

Are you aware of the Characterists of "Strike" "Pierce" and "Thrust" and how those are employed to attack different targets? (As opposed to the "Pressing" Kick.
As I said, you have every right to not know and not care about the differences, as well as not caring that you don't know.

For those who care about what they do not know try this link
http://www.bluecottagetkd.com/ENCYCLOPEDIAOFTAEKWON-DO.html

And at the bottom where there are pictures of books click on Volume 11 for Po Eun info.

 

[Earl Weiss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRXXFwdpOWw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This video is as close to what we teach won hyo. Notice no ready stance like the ITF. Maybe that is why my school do different tuls because of the many Koreans came to the U.S. and made small changes in forms.

Some made changes (I know Han Cha Kyo made at least one) but most just did not know the details. Others kept habits from their original Kwans. In the early 1970's books were not readily available. My instructor was with Han Cha Kyo (Do you know who he was?). The aura with GM Han was do what he says and don't ask questions. His senior progeny will admit he was inconsistent. Fortuneately my instructor was an educator. As books became available we would ask him why we did different stuff than what wasin the book. We would then conform to the book which was the most widely accepted standard. (Not more wide than all other non standards, but the widest accepted standard.)

With GM Han and when I hosted Nam Tae Hi (Do you know who he is? When I asked him about something Han's students did he told me about the change.) I saw strong Chung Do Kwan Habits. You can also see it in Lineage from HU Lee.

As later and more detailed books became available we conformed to those details as well. I trained with several of the highest ranking Koreans and had all the books. At my forst encounter with General Choi in 1990, after 17 years of training. He would say stuff and in my head a voice would scream "That's wrong"! Then I would review the books going back to 1965 thru the current editions and see how 98% of the time my instructors had screwed it up by maintaining old habits, missing details, etc. The other 2% were small refinements. At the end of the course my notes had 150 things I needed to fix.

So, AFAIAC the "Made Changes" thing is mostly malarky. Whenever I have encountered it I ask about a written record of changes. Never seen one. Usualy there are comments like "The students know" then when the instructor dies or they leave these students have all sorts of meetings to try and figure out the standard / changes.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Are you aware of the Characterists of "Strike" "Pierce" and "Thrust" and how those are employed to attack different targets? (As opposed to the "Pressing" Kick.*As I said, you have every right to not know and not care about the differences, as well as not caring that you don't know.*For those who care about what they do not know try this linkhttp://www.bluecottagetkd.com/ENCYCL...AEKWON-DO.htmlAnd at the bottom where there are pictures of books click on Volume 11 for Po Eun info.

I am aware of how to use different side kicks. Rather you press, strike, or thrust it is how someone use it that make the technique different. A low side kick is or could be used with a strike or you could press down on the knee with the blade edge of the foot. Striking the torso with the heel would be better for a mid area attack or defense. Thrusting with ball of the foot would better in my eyes for a tournament sparring cause it causes less damage and gives me greater reach.

I was saying I don't care if someone call it stork, crane, or ready stance as long as it is the same that all that matters. So as you can tell I do care about how things are used. I just dont get stuck on names.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Are you aware of the Characterists of "Strike" "Pierce" and "Thrust" and how those are employed to attack different targets? (As opposed to the "Pressing" Kick.*As I said, you have every right to not know and not care about the differences, as well as not caring that you don't know.*For those who care about what they do not know try this linkhttp://www.bluecottagetkd.com/ENCYCL...AEKWON-DO.htmlAnd at the bottom where there are pictures of books click on Volume 11 for Po Eun info.

I am aware of how to use different side kicks. Rather you press, strike, or thrust it is how someone use it that make the technique different. A low side kick is or could be used with a strike or you could press down on the knee with the blade edge of the foot. Striking the torso with the heel would be better for a mid area attack or defense. Thrusting with ball of the foot would better in my eyes for a tournament sparring cause it causes less damage and gives me greater reach.

I was saying I don't care if someone call it stork, crane, or ready stance as long as it is the same that all that matters. So as you can tell I do care about how things are used. I just dont get stuck on names.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Some made changes (I know Han Cha Kyo made at least one) but most just did not know the details. Others kept habits from their original Kwans. In the early 1970's books were not readily available. My instructor was with Han Cha Kyo (Do you know who he was?). The aura with GM Han was do what he says and don't ask questions. His senior progeny will admit he was inconsistent. Fortuneately my instructor was an educator. As books became available we would ask him why we did different stuff than what wasin the book. We would then conform to the book which was the most widely accepted standard. (Not more wide than all other non standards, but the widest accepted standard.)With GM Han and when I hosted Nam Tae Hi (Do you know who he is? When I asked him about something Han's students did he told me about the change.) I saw strong Chung Do Kwan Habits. You can also see it in Lineage from HU Lee.*As later and more detailed books became available we conformed to those details as well. I trained with several of the highest ranking Koreans and had all the books. At my forst encounter with General Choi in 1990, after 17 years of training. He would say stuff and in my head a voice would scream "That's wrong"! Then I would review the books going back to 1965 thru the current editions and see how 98% of the time my instructors had screwed it up by maintaining old habits, missing details, etc. The other 2% were small refinements. At the end of the course my notes had 150 things I needed to fix.*So, AFAIAC the "Made Changes" thing is mostly malarky. Whenever I have encountered it I ask about a written record of changes. Never seen one. Usualy there are comments like "The students know" then when the instructor dies or they leave these students have all sorts of meetings to try and figure out the standard / changes.

No I don't know those guys but it do make sense that the chag hon forms are different from Gen Chai version because the other Koreans made mistakes or on purpose made changes. I do wonder what are the lineage of where we get our forms. Lots of research still need to be done on my half. But do believe all I am going to get is a trace back to the USTA. Which my instructor was part of and first learned tkd.

 

[Earl Weiss]

No I don't know those guys but it do make sense that the chag hon forms are different from Gen Chai version QUOTE]

To the contrary... it makes no sense.
http://chk-taekwondo.com/id15.html

As stated in the link. "Chang Hon" was General Choi's pen name. They are his patterns (Although done with creative input of others. He was the Final authority. ) General Choi did not have a version of the forms. He set the standards.

For info on pattern development and GM Nam see: https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...9xmaJ2vKHgmVVJkwgU621wYkI8gVs=&attredirects=0

 

[TKDTony2179]

Some made changes (I know Han Cha Kyo made at least one) but most just did not know the details. Others kept habits from their original Kwans. In the early 1970's books were not readily available. My instructor was with Han Cha Kyo (Do you know who he was?). The aura with GM Han was do what he says and don't ask questions. His senior progeny will admit he was inconsistent. Fortuneately my instructor was an educator. As books became available we would ask him why we did different stuff than what wasin the book. We would then conform to the book which was the most widely accepted standard. (Not more wide than all other non standards, but the widest accepted standard.)With GM Han and when I hosted Nam Tae Hi (Do you know who he is? When I asked him about something Han's students did he told me about the change.) I saw strong Chung Do Kwan Habits. You can also see it in Lineage from HU Lee.*As later and more detailed books became available we conformed to those details as well. I trained with several of the highest ranking Koreans and had all the books. At my forst encounter with General Choi in 1990, after 17 years of training. He would say stuff and in my head a voice would scream "That's wrong"! Then I would review the books going back to 1965 thru the current editions and see how 98% of the time my instructors had screwed it up by maintaining old habits, missing details, etc. The other 2% were small refinements. At the end of the course my notes had 150 things I needed to fix.*So, AFAIAC the "Made Changes" thing is mostly malarky. Whenever I have encountered it I ask about a written record of changes. Never seen one. Usualy there are comments like "The students know" then when the instructor dies or they leave these students have all sorts of meetings to try and figure out the standard / changes.

No I don't know those guys and but that does makes sense that my Chang hon tuls are different than General Choi version sense he made changes. Not to say that others have mistakenly made changes after the encyclopedia of tkd was made but people are people they do change or make mistakes. I do know that my instructor started with USTA and that is all I know. Who taught my instructor or who is that Korean that did taught my instructor; instructor I dont know.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Depends how you do your side kicks. For people who do the kind of half side kick that starts with a vertical knee raise (without turning over) then using the ball of the foot would be weird. For a full and proper side kick (as far as TKD goes) it makes perfect sense.

Actually, when performing a side thrusting kick (attacking with the ball of the foot) the leg is brought parallel to the ground before the kick is executed so the attacking tool doesn't travel in an arcing motion. Doing so would reduce the effectiveness of the kick, which I can say from personal experience is quite powerful.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Cyriacus]

Actually, when performing a side thrusting kick (attacking with the ball of the foot) the leg is brought parallel to the ground before the kick is executed so the attacking tool doesn't travel in an arcing motion. Doing so would reduce the effectiveness of the kick, which I can say from personal experience is quite powerful.

Pax,

Chris

You cant half tell i havent done much kicking in a while.
Okay, im curious now just for intellectual reasons. Parallel to the ground with the knee facing up or the knee facing to the side? What kind of chamber are we talking about here?

 

[TKDTony2179]

No I don't know those guys but it do make sense that the chag hon forms are different from Gen Chai version QUOTE]To the contrary... it makes no sense.http://chk-taekwondo.com/id15.htmlAs stated in the link. "Chang Hon" was General Choi's pen name. They are his patterns (Although done with creative input of others. He was the Final authority. ) General Choi did not have a version of the forms. He set the standards.*For info on pattern development and GM Nam see:*https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0

I was saying I see why MY chang hon tul version may be different because when Choi first created the 20 forms some people like Master Hee ll cho only had 20 and and didnt have record of the last 4. Who to say when Jhoon Rhee didnt alter some tuls when he came to America as well. I am sure people of the Oh Do Kwan may have came to America and put in play their version as well. I am reading a pdf I downloaded to my phone so yea the history of TKD is important.

 

[chrispillertkd]

You cant half tell i havent done much kicking in a while.
Okay, im curious now just for intellectual reasons. Parallel to the ground with the knee facing up or the knee facing to the side? What kind of chamber are we talking about here?

When chambering for a side thrusting kick the foot and leg are lifted straight up so the ball of the foot points downward towards the floor. But before the kick's trajectory is started the leg is lifted so it is parallel to the floor. The knee doesn't point to the floor during the chamber or when kicking but is rather to the side. That is what gets the ball of the foot in a vertical position akin to a straight finger tip thrust (or "spear hand"). As I said before, the leg must be lifted parallel to the ground before the kick is started to prevent it from having an arcing motion which would result in more of a brushing against the target instead of thrusting into it.

The side thrusting kick is a great technique for attacking the front of the opponent's body from your flank.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Who to say when Jhoon Rhee didnt alter some tuls when he came to America as well..

I and others can say because the History is known and recorded in several places. Jhoon Rhee could not have changed the Tuls when he came to America because he did not learn them until after he was already in America. General Choi spent a weekend with him at his school in Texas and that is when he learned the forms.

Jhoon Rhee was also a Chung Do Kwan Alum and the CDK habits are apparent.

 

[Cyriacus]

When chambering for a side thrusting kick the foot and leg are lifted straight up so the ball of the foot points downward towards the floor. But before the kick's trajectory is started the leg is lifted so it is parallel to the floor. The knee doesn't point to the floor during the chamber or when kicking but is rather to the side. That is what gets the ball of the foot in a vertical position akin to a straight finger tip thrust (or "spear hand"). As I said before, the leg must be lifted parallel to the ground before the kick is started to prevent it from having an arcing motion which would result in more of a brushing against the target instead of thrusting into it.

The side thrusting kick is a great technique for attacking the front of the opponent's body from your flank.

Pax,

Chris

Okay, i see. I just knew it by a different name, and never thought to use the ball of the foot for it. This explains everything! Thanks for clarifying

 

[Earl Weiss]

Okay, i see. I just knew it by a different name, and never thought to use the ball of the foot for it. This explains everything! Thanks for clarifying

Perhaps, perhaps not. You -(Generic as opposed to specific "You" ) need to understand mechanics and applications of Piercing motion versus thrusting motion as defined for the Chang Hon system. These are important concept. As someone once said "If you understand 100 techniques you may understand a single concept, but if you understand a single concept you will understand 100 techniques. "

 

[Cyriacus]

Perhaps, perhaps not. You -(Generic as opposed to specific "You" ) need to understand mechanics and applications of Piercing motion versus thrusting motion as defined for the Chang Hon system. These are important concept. As someone once said "If you understand 100 techniques you may understand a single concept, but if you understand a single concept you will understand 100 techniques. "

Yeah, but that only really works if you think to apply the concept to the technique. I certainly agree, though. Im a believer in principles and concepts, though when you identify the results as techniques you need to have applied them with respect to the concept first.
That wasnt very coherent on my part, so in an effort to explain myself, to attribute the kick to a thrusting or a piercing concept you first need to use the concept that way (you first need to use the 'side kick' in this context as a thrust or piercing action).

If that still doesnt make sense, i think im overthinking it, so just interpret the above as agreement.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You -(Generic as opposed to specific "You" ) need to understand mechanics and applications of Piercing motion versus thrusting motion as defined for the Chang Hon system. These are important concept.

And what would the difference be between the two motions?

 

[Spookey]

Just adding some peaceful thoughts...

We all pretty much agree the Chang Heon Patterns (Hyung, Tul, Poomse) were formalized within the Oh Do Kwan. We also know Gen. Choi, and Col. Nam were training soldiers in Tang Soo Do prior to the initial finalization. The first finalization appeared in text to include 20 Hyung and Shorin- Shorei Kata (reference "Taekwon-Do, the Art of Self-Defence", Daeha Publication Company 1968, pg 216-pg 239).

General Choi also changed things along the way. In addition to adding and removing "hyong" (word later changed to tul) he altered his preference for individual motions. This took place until when, probably the mid-late 80's. By then many of the original masters of Taekwon-Do had gone their own way including GGM Nam, Tae-Hi. Certainly, we can argue semantics, but I believe it is crazy to say that GGM Nam is doing anything incorrectly. GM Park, Jung Soo is another example or the variety in the generations of Chang Heon Taekwon-Do.

I am glad that I have moved away from my previous elitist disposition, and become more accepting and rational concerning my thoughts. For decades there has been the argument between Kukki & Chang Heon TKD, now we have expanded to include arguments between Chang Heon Taekwondo and I.T.F. Taekwondo.

Is it fare to say that all I.T.F. Taekwon-Do is Chang Heon, but not all Chang Heon Taekwondo is I.T.F.

I believe these nuances are barriers serving to separate us rather than unite us....was UNITY not the General's intent?

Tae-KWON!
Spooks

 

[Earl Weiss]

And what would the difference be between the two motions?

For thrust and pierce. As used in the Chang Hon system...

As you know many in the MA do what is genericaly referred to as the 1/2 rotation punch. It starts Palm up and rotates to a palm down position . (We will ignore for this discussion pros and cons of the 1/2 rotation versus the 1/4 rotation. This is the "Piercing" action. The piercing action, Thrust and Strike are closely related.
As a side note, ask many why they rotate the fist for a punch and see what their answers are.

See page 17
http://www.bluecottagetkd.com/files/vol03.pdf

The side piercing kick uses the same rotation as the punch for the purpose of causing internal hemorrhage. (The term Hydrostatic shock is used to explain this effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock)
In order to be effectively used it needs to be applied to a more fluid area of the body like the abdomen as opposed to a bony area like the head.
With a padded glove covering the hand the twist becomes inneffective. It also has no use when breaking objects like boards.

As stated in the text less twist is uded for the thrust to "cut through" a vital spot. I think a better choice of words than "Cut through" could have been chosen. Perhaps "Penetrate" would be more appropriate. Again for the best effect it must be applied to asoft vital spot such as the solar plexus as opposed to a bony area like the ribs.
The term thrust is used as part of the name of various techniques Fingertip (Flat, Straight, Twin, Upset) elbow, and others denoting it's method of execution and application.

Strike is one of the most common types of attacks and has the least twist used to destroy bone or muscle, and again the name is used for the techniques i.e. Knifehand, Reverse Knifehand, backfist and more.

So, by knowing the Chang Hon name for the technique it gives you insight into the manner of execution and application if you know the concept underlying the term. although they are often "... so closely related in principle it may be difficult to make a clear distinction among them."

Hope this is clear. feel free to diagree.

 

[Earl Weiss]

. GM Park, Jung Soo is another example or the variety in the generations of Chang Heon Taekwon-Do.



Is it fare to say that all I.T.F. Taekwon-Do is Chang Heon, but not all Chang Heon Taekwondo is I.T.F.

I believe these nuances are barriers serving to separate us rather than unite us....was UNITY not the General's intent?

Tae-KWON!
Spooks

GM Park Jong Soo is a good guy. Also a CDK alum. Met him several times at Instructor courses General Choi was giving. I did not attend the one he hosted. Why did he attend and host the course? To learn the proper standard for technique and have his students learn it as well.
(He also called me to meet him for coffee when he was in town fr the late GM Han's daughter's wedding. When I met with him it was like a CDK reunion GM Nam was there as well, and I and one other Non Korean went out during the break between the ceremony and reception. Since I did not speak Korean it was pretty boring. )


I would say the ITF strives to practice the correct technical Chang Hon standard. Others practice whatever standard they feel appropriate.

General Choi strived for Unity to an extent. I viewed him sort of like Steve Jobs who controlled the standard closely while Bill gates had a more open sustem.