Foot hand or just foot prefrence?

[TKDTony2179]

Is it me or is it that the so call full contact TKD seem to be focused on the Taekyon spirt (

) and that the ITF and other org that do TKD seem to be focus on the shotokan heritage (

)?

I was just reading some old fourms and I notice Manny talking about how often using side kicks (seems not a lot) and I notice that the kukkiwon don't use that much of a side kick but mostly seem to use a cut kick which is a push kick. Or am I wrong? It do seem to me that if you use hand and feet combos you tend to see more of a karate like in TKD although the ratio is still either 60/40 or 70/30 (kicks/hands).

So is WTF/Kukkiwon more like celebrating the heriatage of taekyon in TKD and everyone else practice more of the foot hand way?

Please no comments of power. I know I am showing one of a demo and another one of a seminar.

 

[Cyriacus]

Oh boy.

Okay. Full Contact TKD is based on Full Contact TKD. The WTF and the Kukkiwon are associated with that approach to TKD.
ITF TKD is based on ITF TKD.
To be honest, outside of sparring, KKW TKD resembles Shotokan alot more than the ITF does. Thats not a knock on the ITF, either.*

In ITF TKD, the side kick is used as an entry because it reduces your chances of being snappily counterpunched (your head and body are further away. the kick works like a natural cover). In WTF TKD, you dont need to protect your head from punches in sparring and as such you can afford to use more direct entries (since you wont walk into a punch).

Thats looking at the sparring in isolation, but i think thats okay since thats what youre talking about



*So why did i say it? You might be thinking. Because the ITF is based on the ITF, the KKW is based on the Kukkiwon, and wherever they came from, what they are now is not really like those things. The KKW version looks more like Shotokan to me, but its still not even comparable to a Shotokan curriculum or system, from what ive seen and from what ive been told. The ITF is even further from comparison, unless you look at it very, very superficially.

Edit 2: Power is irrelevant. As far as martial arts go, there are lots of variations of TKD, there are lots of variations of Karate, and hey, there are variations on Shotokan. Sometimes they resemble each other, but one doesnt need to be in the spirit of the other as a result. Sometimes that IS the case, but that reasoning only works with select organizations or dojang.
If, for example, John Doe was teaching Doe Taekwondo, and it happened to resemble some artsy traditional form of Karate, then its probably been made to do it that way with whatever explanation attached. But John Doe isnt calling it KKW TKD (unless hes a shylock), even if the uniforms and such are the same. Its Doe Taekwondo. Just covering the independent school angle.

Edit 3: Sorry about all the editing. I just keep of thinking of things to add. If you purposely compare forms of TKD to forms of Karate, you will find resemblences, dumb downs, or downright copies. Go figure. Thats where it came from. But that applies to the KKW, ITF, and just about every other form of TKD. Breaking it down further wont get you far.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In the 1970's Most Shotokan comps I saw scored only the rear leg front snap kick or reverse punch. Very little bounce in the footwork. Now it seems they use roundhouse kicks and some footwork as well as some other hand techniques. I think the Shotokan comps have become more like some TKD comps that allow hands to the head. (still don't seem to see many spinning heel or back kicks or many lead leg kicks other than a sweep or one used to set up something else.) It should be no surprise that if you see the V neck sparring comp you can stop looking for hand techniques.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think it ultimately boils down to the training methodology and focus of the organization/school a person attends. If it is sport, certain orgs tend to use a lot of foot work. I suppose that is okay as the opponent is obliged to do the same. In this regard it seems to end up being who is quicker more than who has power to score a point. If the focus is self-defense i.e. TKD as a martial art, then it had better have a lot more than foot work. It needs to be more well rounded and in truth a good TKD self-defense focused school will look a LOT like good Hapkido or Aikijujutsu. Or at least it should.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Is it me or is it that the so call full contact TKD seem to be focused on the Taekyon spirt (

) and that the ITF and other org that do TKD seem to be focus on the shotokan heritage (

)?

It's you.

From what I have seen of Taekkyon, IMNSHO, ITF Taekwon-Do is closer to it than WTF/KKW Taekwondo is but I wouldn't say either art is a direct branch off of it.

Pax,

Chris

 

[TKDTony2179]

Cyriacus

Why did you say Oh boy? Yes I know that competition can be just full contact or light. Just stating on the so call org.

To be honest, outside of sparring, KKW TKD resembles Shotokan alot more than the ITF does. Thats not a knock on the ITF, either.*

I was just looking at the sparring. Yes the hyungs/tuls/poomsae (whatever you want to call them) of wtf look more like shotokan than itf but both have sign wave. Only itf make it deliberatly. I should of said don't comment about tuls since that isn't fighting but a training aid. So yes only the sparring looks like one is celebrating the game of taekyon in a new manner and the other stays more of the karate as of punching and kicking.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Chrispillertkd

From what I have seen of Taekkyon, IMNSHO, ITF Taekwon-Do is closer to it than WTF/KKW Taekwondo is but I wouldn't say either art is a direct branch off of it.

So can you tell me how it ITF looks more like taekkyon than the KKW? If I look at the sparring only one use feet mostly. From what we know, taekkyon is a primarly a kicking art. If you look at any other tkd they use hand and feet. Like shotokan.

Maybe I missed something but I am willing to learn. But please no tuls describtion.

 

[Cyriacus]

Cyriacus

Why did you say Oh boy? Yes I know that competition can be just full contact or light. Just stating on the so call org.



I was just looking at the sparring. Yes the hyungs/tuls/poomsae (whatever you want to call them) of wtf look more like shotokan than itf but both have sign wave. Only itf make it deliberatly. I should of said don't comment about tuls since that isn't fighting but a training aid. So yes only the sparring looks like one is celebrating the game of taekyon in a new manner and the other stays more of the karate as of punching and kicking.

Oh boy because it feels like a anister of worms.
And i never claimed you didnt know about the contact stuff. I even said power is irrelevant.

KKW/WTF TKD is not a celebration of Taekkyon. Its sparring functions the way it does because of its scoring system, hence why i brought up side kick entries in ITF sparring. Thats only sensible because of the ITF rules. In WTF rules it doesnt make much sense. Similarly, WTF entries dont make much sense in ITF rules.

 

[chrispillertkd]

So can you tell me how it ITF looks more like taekkyon than the KKW? If I look at the sparring only one use feet mostly. From what we know, taekkyon is a primarly a kicking art. If you look at any other tkd they use hand and feet. Like shotokan.

Maybe I missed something but I am willing to learn. But please no tuls describtion.

ITF Taekwon-Do uses feet much more than hands. Its competition rules are designed to promote kicking techniques, in fact. (WTF sparring has seen an increase in hand techniques since it adopted electronic hogu, too.) But even if you equate "sparring" with "free sparring" which you seem to be doing WTF Taekwondo doesn't bear any particular resemblance to Taekkyon apart from using a lot of kicks.

ITF Taekwon-Do actually includes a system of sparring called "Foot Sparring" that is, according to Gen. Choi, developed from Taekkyon. Foot techniques are used exclusively for attacking and defense.

The power generation of ITF Taekwon-Do is much closer to Taekkyon than that used in WTF Taekwondo (here I include both the dropping of weight as well as the inclusion of a "snapping" power in some of its techniques and the emphasis on relaxing the muscles directly after a punch has impacted its target). Likewise, there are several techniques that seem to have been adopted from Taekkyon in the ITF syllabus. These include twisting kicks, front checking kicks, side checking kicks, foot tackling, foot raising, inward pressing kicks, pushing with the shoulder, etc.

When you look at actual KKW techniques and their execution I see very little in common between them and Taekkyon. Their execution is much more similar to Shotokan.

As for tul descriptions, they're irrelevant to this conversation. While people will often point out the similarities between some of the ITF tul and some Shotokan kata there are ample similarities between the KKW black belt poomse and karate kata, too (as well as the Palgues and some aspects of the Taeguks, albeit less than the Palgues). But the inclusion of similar techniques in a style isn't as important as how they are executed.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Oh boy.


Edit 2: Power is irrelevant. .

Not in my reality.

 

[Cyriacus]

Not in my reality.

Context, my friend. Context. Power is irrelevant in the context were discussing. He was worried wed bring up power in regards to this topic, but power has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Manny]

I liked this post and I will talk about sparring and nothing else, the KKW Sparring is about round kicks most of the time and ax kicks and back kicks too, there is no need for a extremely high guard because almost all the kicks are aimed to the torso and beacuse we fight not square but sideways when a high kick is coming and we see it we only dodge the kick. Ther way ITF does sparring is very lieable to me, they use hands to punch and the kicks are more straight they use the side kick the round kick and back kicks and hook kicks too. I think the way ITF does sparring is like some kind of karate sparring.

Manny

 

[sopraisso]

Imo, the "sparring style" in both cases is just a direct consequence to the different rulesets adopted. I really don't think those rulesets have a lot to do with the "martial aspects" of those tkd styles themselves. So, for example, "non-sport" KKW TKD could be more about hand/arm techniques than kick techniques (I do think so), but the sport sparring style doesn't necessarily goes the same way - even because (in both styles actually) a large part (not to say most) of the techniques are simply not allowed in competition sparring. So the differences in sparring don't really reflect the differences between the "martial styles" (regardless of forms), but simply the different rulesets adopted, that in my opinion have little to do with training methods or martial aspects, and more with sport, safety and spectacle intents. But that is only "official" competition sparring, so you could adopt different rules in your dojang or even exclude the competition (while keeping the resisting opponent aspect) in order to do something more related to the general set of techniques and strategies of your system.

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