Here's a question for you Non TKD'ers

[Gemini]

Not a fan of TKD, in one time the last thing you ever wanted to do was to take a TKD side thrust kick, it would definatly crush what ever was in it's path. Nowadays most TKD schools cannot even kick with a degree of power!

I agree. Unfortunately, this has alot to do with what I posted earlier. At least in part. Just because someone is capable does not mean they are able to make others capable. In TKD, you can throw two kicks that look quit similar, with one being extremely effective, the other not. Learning body mechanics and matching techniques to those mechanics to produce results is an extremely difficult thing to do. I know many people that can throw effectively but they don't know why. They don't know TO know why.

There are still many that can be effective though. I took that same side kick you referred to right in the stomach last night, which sent me about 6 or 7 feet back right on my butt. Fortunately, it was only my sabumnim who had no real desire to hurt me. He could have easily turned my ribs to powder with that kick.

I taped it. Maybe I'll post it under "Gemini In Motion".

 

[arnisador]

I took TKD for about a month at a college and then switched to Judo. The higher-ranked students were obnoxious and enjoyed hurting the newer students in sparring. I was not new to the martial arts and could handle the situation, but I just didn't like the atmosphere.

The rest of my info. is from observations at TKD tournaments, such as the one held at my college every year ("Will the 10-12 year old third degree black belts pelase report to ring 7!") and other tournaments, visits to schools, many discussions with a variety of friends in TKD, and of course what I've read. The best man at my wedding was a TKDer, and a fellow Modern Arnis person is also. Both have made good cases for the art. I have seen it worked in with Modern Arnis effectively--not just this one person but others at camps over the year (e.g., a couple of TKDers we knew from Detroit).

I know TKD can be done well. But, I'm reluctant to advise people to consider it. Why? First and foremost, every art has its McDojos, but in my experience, the odds of a randomly chosen TKD school being one is much higher than that for just about any other art. In fact, in large TKD books I often find marketing info.--whereas otehr arts concentrate on technqiue and application only. Many TKD orgs. have made expansion a goal. Sounds good in theory, but we know what follows.

Second, the focus on sport has too often come at the expense of self-defense instruction. If one wants a sport, that's great: for self-defense, unless I know something about the particular school, I tend to tell people to avoid TKD unless they co-teach Hapkido (or something similar).

Third and related to this is the fact that the TKD sparring rules can encourage bad habits for fighting. For example, they can lead a person to develop the habit of keeping the hands low when fighting (to block kicks), leaving themselves open to a punch to the head. They can lead a person, because of scoring, to develop an over-emphasis on high kicks, which may not translate well to general self-defense situations. (Of course, that approach can work in some cases.) The great emphasis on sparring often leads to a decreased emphasis on defense against weapons.

Fourth, the weapons are often inappropriate add-ons for flash or for forms competition. I so often see eskrima sticks, nunchakus, etc., at TKD schools--these are not part of the Korean tradition, and are there, I assume, as an add-on for marketing purposes. I think these things must "fit" the art.

Fifth and sixth, and much more personal to me, I don't believe that kicking should be an emphasis in self-defense, where the hands should dominate; and as TKD is Shotokan Karate with modifications, whic itself is modified Okinawan Karate, why not go to the source unless one wants the Olympic sport aspect? This is probably a reflection of my (Okinawan) Karate basis, as that's where I started. I know some will say it's actually 2000 year old Tae Guk, not Shotokan, but I simply don't believe it.

I hope this hasn't been too harsh. Again, I know people who do TKD well and at whose schools I'd train. People who kick high but keep their hands up to guard their head, who train their joint locks and other close-in work as well as longer range techniques, who train low kicks as well as higher ones, who spar for sport but also do realistic live training for self-defense, etc. There's no doubt in my mind that there's good TKD out there and that it works. I've seen it mixed in well with boxing, with arnis, and with JKD, just to name a few. Someone who fought in a local MMA fight using BJJ, JKD, and Vale Tudo training told me that he actually won the match at last with a high kick he learned from doing TKD when younger. I don't need to be told that it can be effective. In my experience, finding such a school--one that does TKD well--is much harder than finding a school that does, say, Shorin-ryu well; that is, if you pick one TKD school out of a list of ten then the odds are much higher of hitting a McDojo than if you do the same experiement with a Shorin-ryu school.

I have recommended TKD for kids when there's little else around. It develops good kicks, good flexibility, and keeps them focused on teh martial arts. But I usually advise that they transition into something else as teens. They'll be glad to have those strong kicking skills and the foundation in stancework when they start something else, I say.

Again, please, no offense intended here. I know that this is just my experience. This is not the only case of an art that I've had so-so experiences with that friends of mine absolutely love and can't understand why I don't see it the same way!

 

[Gemini]

This is a great point and applies to other arts as well!

Most definately. That's why I don't take TKD bashing very seriously. It's pretty much the pot calling the kettle black. It just gets old sometimes. I know Judo went through this. Then Karate. It's just our turn to take the cheap shots from the ignorant. This too, shall pass.

Hey, I know! Let's gang up on Krav Maga or Muay Thai. Those are really cool, up and coming arts.

It's just silly.

 

[mantis]

Most definately. That's why I don't take TKD bashing very seriously. It's pretty much the pot calling the kettle black. It just gets old sometimes. I know Judo went through this. Then Karate. It's just our turn to take the cheap shots from the ignorant. This too, shall pass.

Hey, I know! Let's gang up on Krav Maga or Muay Thai. Those are really cool, up and coming arts.

It's just silly.

you are not serious about people bashing TKD because you LACK LOYALTY TO YOUR ART
just kidding just kidding.. (your daughter kicked my dog)
looks like the problem with TKD, just like any other art, is with some who practice the art. abuse is always present all over MA. but since TKD is very common and popular you have a bigger slice of bad apples.
i think those answers should be enough for Mr. Terryl to convey that there's nothing wrong with the art, there might be something wrong with people.

-regards

 

[Gemini]

you are not serious about people bashing TKD because you LACK LOYALTY TO YOUR ART

LOL. Damn! You got me! The instant I read that the blood rushed straight into my head. (Hence the need for my plexiglas monitor screen).

Again, please, no offense intended here.

None taken. At least not by me. Unfortunately there is quite a bit of truth to everything you said. Too much, in fact. But then, isn't it the responsibility for the TKD community as a whole to repair the damage that we caused ourselves in the first place?

 

[Flying Crane]

I inherited biases from my early instructors (tho in fairness, they had training in TKD as well, and one of them had his black belt in TKD).

Then, in college, I met an exchange student from Mexico who was trying to get on the Mexican Olympic team. He kicked my ***. And it wasn't all kicks. He was using a lot of hand techniquesand sweeps and setting me up nicely. I was a kenpo black belt at the time.

This was when I took a step back and decided that it was more about the skill of the person in doing his art, then the art itself.

 

[bignick]

I"m probably an anomaly when it comes to the issue of tkd bashing and probably more closely aligned with Gemini on the issue. I rarely try to defend tae kwon do from its detractors, mostly because a lot of the stuff they see is indefensible. I have a LOT more on this subject to say but I've got to run to jujutsu. I'll expound upon my thoughts after class...

 

[Loki]

Hey, I know! Let's gang up on Krav Maga or Muay Thai. Those are really cool, up and coming arts.

Whachoo talkin' about, Gemini?

 

[bignick]

Here it is, it's one long rant, full of all sorts of spelling and grammar errors, and entirely my own opinion.

 

[bignick]

Tae Kwon Do As I See It



I love taekwondo, I have loved it since I was 7 years old watching my older brother do his “karate”. I am no expert or master or even very accomplished at this art. However, I am analytical and critical and this applies to all I do. The following is my opinions, and only my opinions on how I see taekwondo today. In no way are these problems unique to taekwondo, however I don’t study every other art, so my knowledge of the them is limited to what I can glean from discussions, reading, and resources like Martial Talk. However, I will be drawing comparisons to the other arts I study, Kodokan & Zen Judo and Kaisho Goshin Budo Jujutsu, when I feel it is pertinent.



Does the art of taekwondo still exist today? I believe it does. Is it the same as it was ten, twenty, or thirty years ago? Absolutely not, all arts evolve over time. I think we would be hard pressed to find an art that has maintained complete integrity. Every art is changed by those who touch it and teach it and to believe otherwise is, I think, a little silly.



Image

So taekwondo is different, no big deal, right? With evolution being a buzz word these days I’d like to use it here. Tae Kwon Do has evolved, as have other arts, for better or worse. Evolution can bring change that benefits the art and moves it to a higher level of understanding and technique, nothing is perfect in this world and improvement can only be achieved through change. However, change does not always imply improvement. I think a lot of the taekwondo has evolved to fit a habitat and fill a niche that doesn’t really exist anymore, if it ever did in the first place. With the main focus of so many schools being competition it has reduced its attractiveness to many people that are otherwise interested in a martial art. Tae Kwon Do players have a reputation for being extremely flexible and athletic. Of course, a lot of us are, some definitely more than others, but anybody that has put forth serious effort into their training will see great gains areas such as flexibility, speed, endurance, etc. The problem is most people right away assume that we are all just born with it and they could never do it. The thing they don’t realize is that these traits are benefits, not prerequisites of training. It’s sad, but the overweight guy sitting in his recliner typing this right now....oops slip up there....anyways, he thinks that he can’t do it so he doesn’t try so he stays out of shape and inactive. Of course this applies to many other activities, including when people see things like competitive judo and people taking these huge breakfalls and landing on their head or getting choked or contorted in disturbing ways. There are the people that see it and are inspired to join a dojang and get in shape, but just like at a health club or gym, the majority of these people disappear when the results aren’t instant and the work isn’t easy.



Unrealistic techniques

Do they exist in taekwondo, absolutely. I think there is a lot of chaff that could be removed. Do we really need to do a 540° spinning hook kick. No. Is it fun? Yes. Sometimes you need to push yourself to a physical limit and have a little fun. The problem arises when schools start teaching these techniques as “practical” self defense methods. That is assuming that they teach self defense at all. I’m still undecided as to which is more dangerous, teaching stupid techniques or completely ignoring the area.



The thing I really find interesting about this situation is that all the problems that people have with taekwondo and its focus on competition are just as prevalent, in my experience, in the world of judo. In judo we call it “Judo Dumb”. It’s the use of competition techniques assuming they apply directly or even indirectly to self defense. Examples include such intelligent moves as turtling against an upright opponent or doing things like cartwheels or round-offs to escape throws. What’s interesting to me is the only derogatory comments I hear about this are from my judo instructors. Why the world has chosen to focus on taekwondo’s problems is beyond me. I would say that these types of things don’t always look as impractical on the surface as do the flashy techniques of taekwondo. Even an untrained eye can spot the biggest flaws with some of the things taekwondo is presenting to the world as a martial art.



Along the same lines is unrealistic training. I believe this different than unrealistic techniques because even good techniques can be practiced badly. Often in taekwondo schools, and I am in no way excluding my own school from this, you see students of all ranks, and some instructors, just going through the motions with no intent, no focus, and no real purpose. None of this is present among the higher belts I train with in judo and jujutsu. We will have class for two hours and stay after for another hour and a half doing randori, walking through techniques, practicing uchi komi, or just discussing the arts in general. We have done this every night, without exception for as long as I have been training.



It seems as if a lot of the taekwondo students don’t even care. I don’t know why they are there. I’ve tried doing the same things we do in judo and jujutsu with some of them and no one is ever interested. As soon as we bow out everyone disappears. Although this could be put off to the fact that most of us are busy college students and we have lots of homework, studying, etc to take care of. This makes sense and is logical except for the fact the my judo and jujutsu clubs are both filled with college students as well.



But I am digressing from the point, back to the issue of unrealistic training. How many times have trained what to do if someone catches your kicks? I’ve seen most taekwondo artists defense against someone catching their kicks....it’s falling down, on their face if I’m in bad mood. Sure we talk about it. Making sure we retract our weapons fast to reduce, and that’s the key word, the possibility of our kicks being snagged. Reducing is no the same as removing. I don’t know of any school that spends any serious time discussing what happens if it is grabbed and how to prevent getting introduced to the pavement.



This glossing over of important areas of training is also where taekwondo has received its bad reputation for its hand techniques, joint locks, ground fighting, etc. There is too much variability between schools for me to really discuss this issue. But the reputation, is in most cases, probably not undeserved. But taekwondo does have joint locks, and there are throws, and when trained properly its hand techniques can be devastating, and there is groundfighting. By the way, groundfighting does not equal grappling. Place this quote:



“If I’m on the ground grappling with someone, I’ve done something seriously wrong and I need to get my *** back up.”



Anybody? My judo and jujutsu instructor. Hand techniques and kicking work just fine on the ground as long as we train to adapt them to that environment. Most schools teach a lot of this to some degree but usually not enough to be useful to the practitioner. Laying on your back is a whole different world than standing on your feet and unless you’re completely comfortable with it you’re in trouble.



Little Jimmy the 5 year old black belt



I really think this is kind of a gray area and I think taekwondo actually has a good solution. First off, no school that I know of gives a black belt to childrent under the age of 15. However, most do give the rank of Poom, or junior black belt. They are two very different ranks and are in no way equal to each other. In our school, an even an something like an adult green belt technically outranks a poom. However, just because they are young does not mean that they didn’t work their butts off to achieve it and most of them work harder and are more invested in their training than a lot of the adult students. I feel that they need to be recognized for their hard work and this is a good compromise. In my opinion they shouldn’t teach, they shouldn’t be addressed as instructor, but they should be a role model to the other kids in the class and seeing someone around your age achieve something like certainly can help inspire kids to work harder.



However, I will address every junior black belt I meet as sir or ma’am. Why shouldn’t I? It’s exactly how I will address everyone I meet in a martial arts situation whether it’s a six year old white belt or an eighty year old 10th dan. Respect is a two way street and if you don’t show it you don’t deserve it. I will show you the same respect I expect you to show me, regardless of age or rank.



Competition Creep

This is what I like call the effect of competition rules causing changes in the way the art, as well as the sport, is practiced. First of all, I really don’t think there is much wrong with taekwondo competition, except for a few issues I’ll discuss later. It is also hard to separate taekwondo from sparring. Just as it’s almost impossible to separate judo from randori. It’s in integral part of training. However, when your in class you don’t always have to play by the rules. In judo we’ll allow leg locks, pressure points, and various throws that are illegal in competition because we know in class we are trying to learn, not kill each other. Tae Kwon Do schools should do the same thing. Step outside the rule set in your class and bring in techniques that aren’t allowed in competition.



Another feature of competition creep is slow transition to competition-type techniques in normal class situations. For instance, triple alternating roundhouses can work in a tournament but I don’t think they should be practiced much in class. Practice the basic techniques that are simple and proven effective. Even better, work on using your basic techniques, and foot work from things like one steps and forms in sparring to see how to apply them. Don’t just throw out all the stuff you’ve learned just because you strapped a hogu on.



Finally, speed. Modern taekwondo seems to focus on speed, sometimes to the exclusion of all else. Speed is important, but it’s only one part of the equation. Proper mechanics, footwork, distance, timing all play an important role in the successfulness in an attack.



Speaking of Rules

There are a few things I’d like to see changed to really make sparring more useful for self-defense training. They include, low kicks, open hand techniques, and foot sweeps. Sometimes I think takedowns would be nice, but I’m still undecided on that. This would allow for people to more freely practice using a wider variety of taekwondo’s techniques in a free form basis.



What Do We Get Right?

Kicking. Just figured I’d start out obvious. Not so much high kicks, some of them, not all, are impractical. But the general mechanics and motions we have done so much smoother than a lot of arts. We don’t have a monopoly on kicks, and I’ve picked up some cool ones outside of taekwondo, but since we specialize so much in foot fighting, we better get it right, otherwise we are just wasting our time. Like the time my friend, a black belt in jujutsu, was giving me a slight ribbing about taekwondo. I wasn’t in the best of moods, so before he knew what happened my foot was about an inch from his face. He learned that if you open your mouth about taekwondo you might just end up with our foot in it. It was all good natured, but I still got my point across.



Attitude. As mentioned earlier I’ve found people in taekwondo usually more respectful of other arts. One of my taekwondo instructors said, “No art has it right, not even us. If somebody had it right, we wouldn’t be doing this, we’d be doing that art”.



Promotion. Whether you like it or not, taekwondo has spread extremely well and fast. When taught well it really does offer something for anyone and effective means of self-defense.













You mean that’s all we got right? Not even close, but I’m tired and have been typing for a very long time. I’ll leave it to the others to tell you about that..



That’s my opinion, take it for what it’s worth or don’t.

 

[arnisador]

That's great! I don't agree with everything you wrote, but I find lots in it that I respect. I think you're right to speak of TKD's evolution, esp. as new as it is. Your take on Poom ranks is reasonable--if one draws a clear distinction, it isn't so bad, perhaps. (I still can't go for calling a 5 year old 'Sir' though.) Thanks for adding this contribution!

 

[arnisador]

Even as a non-TKD person, I find this discussion very interesting. The art is so ubiquitous that it comes up in conversation very often--I'm glad to hear more diverse views about it!

 

[The Kai]

Allthough you might make the distinction between the Jr Black belt and a regular black belt, in the eyes of the public they are the same-despite your rationalzations

 

[Gemini]

Allthough you might make the distinction between the Jr Black belt and a regular black belt, in the eyes of the public they are the same-despite your rationalzations

That's very true, Todd. However, given the student has put in an enormous amount of time and effort, what is a reasonable alternative? Or is there one?This has been addressed in many threads and is always a tough one to answer. Each side is always able to give a valid argument. It boils down to what the organization feels is right. TKD as a single entity has decided this is the best compromise. Flawless? 'Course not. Nothing is.

I still can't go for calling a 5 year old 'Sir' though

I've never had a problem with this. Simply because by showing respect, you are teaching respect. The young ones are paying attention.

 

[Gemini]

Nick, I'm almost speechless. (But not quite)

Thank you for putting in the effort of that extensive write up. I have to second Arnasidor that I can't necessarily agree with everything you wrote, but at the same time, nothing you wrote is too far fetched either. Most of what you mentioned is prevelent in many places, so I can certainly see how someone could feel that way or have that impression.

It was also pretty obvious to me that despite the length of the post, it was only the tip of the iceberg. Keep it coming when you get the chance. I have to yank out a couple of things you said because they really hit home.

you see students of all ranks, and some instructors, just going through the motions with no intent, no focus, and no real purpose.

This has always been a big problem for me because I take my training very seriously. I have been repremanded from time to time for being too critical of some of my fellow students. "Focus on your own training". Okay, I agree with that, but I also believe that you are doing yourself a favor by surrounding yourself with people of like mind. People that make you push yourself. An individual coming to class making comments like "Ew. Sweat is disgusting" makes me wonder why they're even there and frankly, that mantality annoys the hell out of me. It has nothing to do with ability. It has everything to do with effort.

As soon as we bow out everyone disappears.

A by-product of indroducing "An art that offers something for everyone". I would like others to chime in why they are in the art they are. It seems to me other arts are more focused on a single goal, drawing in a more focused crowd. This isn't my opinion, it's an observation. Anyone agree? Disagree with it? I would seriously like to know.

 

[bignick]

Allthough you might make the distinction between the Jr Black belt and a regular black belt, in the eyes of the public they are the same-despite your rationalzations

Most likely. However, to the eyes of a lot of the general public taekwondo is the same as karate, kenpo, kung fu, etc. Just because some people can't tell the difference doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

[terryl965]

Allthough you might make the distinction between the Jr Black belt and a regular black belt, in the eyes of the public they are the same-despite your rationalzations

Kai I believe I have earned the respect of most of the people here on MT, my years in the Art as well as teaching, I have a scenio for you and Arnisardor O.K..
Here goes I have a student that I personally have been training for 9 years as of a couple years ago he was awarded his BB, his test was over three day's. 1st day physical fitnes,started out with a 5 mile run, then came the workout 250 sqaurts,250 push-ups, 250 jump-n-jack,250 crunches,250squarts thrust,250 mountain climbers. After he was done ran 2.5 more miles. Had a 1 hour lunch break came back and did 250 of each punch, lead hand reversr, lead hand ridge hand, lead hand overhand, backfist, hammerfist, then had to do 250 of every kick we do with both legs and also both hands, Day two did one step sparring two step sparring, all his self defense and finished with Poomse our forms he did all the Tae gueks and all the Chonji plus did the Dai's, plus all the Palgwaes all in all about 27 poomse not bad for a students that devotes 3-7 a day in this dojang, Day 3 he did all his sparring 1 on 1 2 on 1 and 3 on 1 at the end he did the bull ring for about 45 minutes.

I pass him to recieve his BB from the Kukkiwon, would you agree he earned that belt. once you give me your response I'll finish the rest of the story.

Thanks for you understanding ahead of time
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[The Kai]

While the public might not know the difference between different arts they respect the idea itself

jr black leachs respect from the rank-Why don't teenagers want to try the MA's anymore-cuz it is becoming "kid stuff"

Granted most of these kids have played at their TKD(or Karate) for a while, yet are they experts, or fighters? Very hard to judge is'nt it? Is what they are tauight in any way altered, or watered down from the adult curiculum? If thet cannot do the adukt curiculum or you don't feel that teaching a kid a certain type of technique they are not bb's

Personally I feel that calling a child "Sir" is Wrong. The hierarchy of the belt system (or any ranking system) assumes that the teacher or more experienced person is as older or older then student, with the exception of the royal class of course-maybe this is the feeling of unearned entitlement we see in the younger generations

 

[arnisador]

I think calling a child 'Sir' is just grammatically incorrect. It's not showing respect for t he child--it's changing the meaning of the term. But, to those who feel otherwise--no issues from me. I respect your opinion, but disagree.

 

[arnisador]

Here goes I have a student that I personally have been training for 9 years as of a couple years ago he was awarded his BB

I can't say. Did he do his techniques with enough power, stability, and focus to take out a 250 lb. biker on PCP? It's just hard to say. I have no doubt he met your standards--but that's the whole issue; we all have different standards for black belt. For me, being able to defend against a likely attack--which would be from an adult--is important. Someone else, esp. in a martial sport like Judo, might say one need only be able to succeed against a foe in the same weight/age/gender classes.

Do you have any clips from the test?