Here's a question for you Non TKD'ers

[Cryozombie]

I agree with a lot of Bignicks assesment of TKD.

MY personal exposure was tainted when I studied it for all of 6 weeks. The Instructor was a pompous *** who presented himself as the "baddest mofo low down roun' this here town" even going so far as to tell us no one could touch him. I switched from that to a Hapkido school, and was 2 belts away from black when I quit... after a rank test where I ****ed up royaly and was awarded the belt anyhow. It made me stop and think... and I realized that I wasnt getting something that was USEFUL out of those types of arts... and I moved on.

NOW, I can look back at what I learned with some perspective, and I realize that the arts werent bad, they just were not presented to me correctly.

Plus It made me cringe to have a 12 year old black belt ordering me to do pushups because she thought it was funny that she had that power, and would Drop people for no real reason.

 

[terryl965]

I can't say. Did he do his techniques with enough power, stability, and focus to take out a 250 lb. biker on PCP? It's just hard to say. I have no doubt he met your standards--but that's the whole issue; we all have different standards for black belt. For me, being able to defend against a likely attack--which would be from an adult--is important. Someone else, esp. in a martial sport like Judo, might say one need only be able to succeed against a foe in the same weight/age/gender classes.

Do you have any clips from the test?

No I can say honestly he cannot take on a 250 lb biker on pcp but 95% of law enfrocement could not either without back-up,he's my son he 11 and in the Kukkiwon standerd he is consided a poom which is junior BB. I do not give out BB to everyone and I personally hold my wife and three son's at a different level than other students, not that the other students get water down material they don't. My son has earned the right to wear his Poom and he has no big head and he respect his elders more so than adults. After 9 years of training and the last couple he has grown so much. In gymnastic they are great athletes in sports we look up to them but in mA training they are not wroth anything. why is it a 11 years Baseball player with a arm like a rocket is great but a 11 Ma'er is nothing. I know plenty of BB adults that could not take on the person you described, so go we take away there training no we just say they are over matched and the guy is wracked out on PCP.
The Question was does someone who meets the requirements of a given test not deserve what they have earn and now most people will say no because he is 11 but if they same requirements was meet by a 20 year old the answer would be yes.
I try not to judge, I simply do not undrstand the mentallity of some Ma'ers that's all and if I get bad reps point for this comment so be it. A boxer who is a golden glove champ at the age of 11 is looked upon as a remarkable athlete, we are so un aware of how hypacritical we are of are on merits.

I hope I offende no one and I hope some will see throught he crack inthe door and take a poom as face value for what it is a Jr BB not an adult, but I have confidence that my son one day will make a great BB and bring the Art he loves as well to other practitioners one day.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[arnisador]

No offense taken! But do the requriements include power? A 20 year old will have the power and body mass an 11 year old (generally) won't.

I can see the argument that if you're doing it was well as you can at your age, that's all that can reasonably be asked. Yet, to me, a martial artist must be capable of being effective against a typical attacker--not just against one chosen for size/weight/gender/age/etc. So, I think we see different things as being appropriate to test for--which is fine.

Your son sounds very dedicated. That's great! I train, and train with, my son (15 years), and it's a great experience for me.

 

[terryl965]

No offense taken! But do the requriements include power? A 20 year old will have the power and body mass an 11 year old (generally) won't.

I can see the argument that if you're doing it was well as you can at your age, that's all that can reasonably be asked. Yet, to me, a martial artist must be capable of being effective against a typical attacker--not just against one chosen for size/weight/gender/age/etc. So, I think we see different things as being appropriate to test for--which is fine.

Your son sounds very dedicated. That's great! I train, and train with, my son (15 years), and it's a great experience for me.

Arnisador I respect you and your opion he has strength for his age, when he turns 18 he will test for his adult BB. I only hope he is the same at 18 that he is at 11 only time will tell. I do understand your side and if he was being attack I hope he has the good sense that I try to teach and give a good old fashion straight kick to the growing and run for help.
Thank you for your responses and I agree with your statements, just in TKD a junior BB is awarded and I follow tradition inside the Art I teach.
Terry

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I can't say. Did he do his techniques with enough power, stability, and focus to take out a 250 lb. biker on PCP? It's just hard to say. I have no doubt he met your standards--but that's the whole issue; we all have different standards for black belt. For me, being able to defend against a likely attack--which would be from an adult--is important. Someone else, esp. in a martial sport like Judo, might say one need only be able to succeed against a foe in the same weight/age/gender classes.

Arnisador, I respect your opinion very much. However, MOST black belts under 150 pounds would not be able to take on a 250 lb. biker (assuming street experience, or why say biker with its connotation of a bad dude) on PCP. I hope I don't offend, but the majority on this board, including myself, probably could not under many scenarios. Heck, individuals with firearms have often not been able to stop determined attackers of that size when assaulted. There have been cases of individuals on PCP being shot and stabbed multiple times without being stopped. Sure, they may have ultimately died of their wounds - but not before they killed the defender.

I would be more worried about McDojang 18 month 6 year old black belts than a Kukkiwon certified 11 year old Junior who, while retaining size and strength limitations due to youth, has a spirit and technical proficiency that exceeds the majority of adult TKD (factoring in McDojos) black belts.

Also, the west has this false image (as I'm sure you're aware of) of the black belt as martial art's expert. In the east a first dan is considered anything but an "expert". Many schools in Japan and Korea award dans in less than a year.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

While the public might not know the difference between different arts they respect the idea itself

jr black leachs respect from the rank-Why don't teenagers want to try the MA's anymore-cuz it is becoming "kid stuff"

Granted most of these kids have played at their TKD(or Karate) for a while, yet are they experts, or fighters? Very hard to judge is'nt it? Is what they are tauight in any way altered, or watered down from the adult curiculum? If thet cannot do the adukt curiculum or you don't feel that teaching a kid a certain type of technique they are not bb's

Personally I feel that calling a child "Sir" is Wrong. The hierarchy of the belt system (or any ranking system) assumes that the teacher or more experienced person is as older or older then student, with the exception of the royal class of course-maybe this is the feeling of unearned entitlement we see in the younger generations

1. The only one who can leach respect from the rank, IMO, is the holder.

2. Of course they are not experts. A first dan is an intermediate beginner.

3. How can an 11 year old with 5-7 years of dedicated training be considered to have a feeling of unearned entitlement? I agree with that critique of our culture, but this young man, in my view, does not qualify. In fact, if the past is any indicator (as it usually is), he is well on his way to becoming a leader with the very opposite attributes.

I understand where you're coming from, though. A dan in your style, unlike many, or even most, IS considered an advanced practioner - an expert, even. (I've seen brown belt level Kaju stylists in action) However, the dan system was not originally set up this way. It is the American image of the black belt (regardless of degree) as superhuman expert that is the problem.

Regarding the address of sir, or m'am; I had a youth pastor (8th grade) who addressed us as sir. You'd be surprised at the change in our behavior after being addressed so. To behave badly after being treated so respectfully and as adults would have been unthinkable. He never yelled, yet he could quiet a room simply by entering it.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Tae Kwon Do As I See It

This should be an article or a sticky! Nick, this was a GREAT POST! Is there anyway to nominate a post for a "best of the best"?

I know that your into computers, but I think you'd make a fine freelance writer as well. Martial arts OR computers.

 

[bignick]

I think we really need to get our terminology straight. A poom belt is not a black belt. A "junior black belt" if we use that terminology is not a holder of any dan certification. And if I ever personally caught a kid giving out pushups, for anything, he or she would be living on their knuckles. Poom belts, in most organizations that I am familiar with do not wear a black belt and they hold no real authority, other being held up as an example for other kids their age. I think Terry raises a good point, why can a 11-13 year old be an Olympic champion but not have a "junior black belt". I don't even like that term, by the way. There is a clear and distinct difference between the two, poom and dan, that is meant to recognize the effort these kids have put into their training while realizing that they do not qualify, for a number of reasons, for a dan rank. This quite a bit different than the 13 year old japanese exchange student I met who held a shodan in his style of karate. Not a junior black belt, a black belt, period.

Secondly (from dictionary.com),
sir n.
1. Sir Used as an honorific before the given name or the full name of baronets and knights.
2. Used as a form of polite address for a man: Don't forget your hat, sir.
3. Used as a salutation in a letter: Dear Sir or Madam.

Although it may be argued, with merit, that the word "man" implies someone older, but how older. What age is a man? I know quite a few adults that I don't feel deserve the title of "man". But we use the word sir when adressing male students of any age or rank, because it is polite and respectful and if you are there to learn and putting in the effort I believe you deserve at least that much respect. Reminds me of the birthday cards I would get from relatives addressed to Master Nick Olson. What was I the master of? Nothing, but that was the polite and formal way to address a young male child.

 

[Shaolinwind]

What drawers your perspective of TKD is it first hand experience or from second hand gossup. How do you non believer drawer your conclussions about TKD.
Terry

Back when I took TSD, my instructor dissed TKD pretty badly from time to time. It didn't particularly sway my opinion, since I don't form opinions based on the opinions of others. I kinda like TKD for a lot of reasons, even though it isn't the art for me.

I agree with Gemini.. Who cares what people think anyhow. You can't generalize the whole thing from a couple schools or a couple individuals. It's a martial art that's thrived for a long time, and for a good reason.

 

[Makalakumu]

I seriously think that one the contributers to the McDojang effect TKD or any other martial arts is franchising.

I made this post on another thread, but I think it is appropriate here too.

I think we need to look no further then McDonalds if we want to find out what a McDojo actually is. Take a look at your average big mac and draw your own analogies...

There are many steps that have gone into making this sandwich (Mcdojo).

1. The first step is standardization. Every peice of this product is monitored and controlled so that they will all be the same.
2. The next step is the obtainment of the materials. The cheapest, most readily available, ingredients are the ones that go into the pot.
3. The next step involves the use of chemicals. Hundreds of chemicals are added to the natural ingredients in order to hide the substandard flavor.
4. The next step is assembly. This sandwich is put together by people who don't care about the product and it is done as fast as possible.
5. The next step is marketing. Only the best looking (specially prepared) products end up in ads and all packaging is flashy, complete with canned specially designed phrases that catch the ear.
6. The last step is consumption. The consumer who buys this product is looking for something consistant, comfortable, and cheap.

In my opinion, a "McDojo" is a franchise whose "product" resembles a Big Mac.

The question of whether or not this is bad would be a great topic for another thread. I see a market that is being filled...

However, if we are concerned with "impressions" and "quality" in regards to peoples view of TKD, then franchising has to come up. Some of the problems that I see in this art are organizational. The art is ubiquitous and it didn't get that way because of a focus on quality, it got that way because of marketing.

Therefore my question is this, which TKD organizations market with the franchising model?

 

[terryl965]

This isgetting into a Mc Dojoj threadit was not meant to be, I'm at fault more so than anybody else. Can we please go back to the question at hand what gave most of you, your perspective of TKD first hand experience od second hand gosup.

P.S. for the masses my dojang is open to all that wish to come train with me and then you can see for yourself.

I believe most that have responded here so far have brought up some good points and at the same time, they for the most part do not know how and all the criteria's of Kukkiwn TKD, In my honest quest for knowledge only know of a hand full of true Kukkiwon school that follow there criteia,and althrough I'm Kukkiwon I throw in some Karate and judo and some other arts that I have tidbitted around with. So even I'm not 100% Kukkiwon at my school. I hope the TKD forum grows without mud slinging and I know the value of TKD, the one value is coditioning and self respect we demand it while other art that I have watched let it go by the waistside.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Makalakumu]

This is getting into a Mc Dojo thread, it was not meant to be, I'm at fault more so than anybody else. Can we please go back to the question at hand what gave most of you, your perspective of TKD first hand experience or second hand gosup.

Before 1997, my experience with TKD was very negative. I visited McDojangs every time I went through the door of a "Karate America" or "Black Belt America". Therefore, I think it perfectly natural to discuss some aspects of McDojangs...this was, afterall, my first hand experience.

At one place I visited and trained briefly, I sparred with a senior student and won a well fought match. I bowed at completion and noticed he didn't bow back. When I moved on to the next person, he kicked me in the back.

In 1997, I traveled to Alaska with some friends. They happened to be very good TKDists and they brought me to their school. This school was a Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan school and all of things that we've talked about that made a good TKD school were present. I was very honored to be invited.

The difference in my first had experience was stark. And I think the difference ultimately lies with the franchisement of MA schools. The organizations backing the establishments I visited were like night and day. If you think this is off topic, I will respect that. I think it a worthy discussion, nonetheless.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Flying Crane]

At one place I visited and trained briefly, I sparred with a senior student and won a well fought match. I bowed at completion and noticed he didn't bow back. When I moved on to the next person, he kicked me in the back.

upnorthkyosa

My God, that it pathetic.

 

[Gemini]

My God, that it pathetic.

Yep. Pretty good example of someone who just doesn't get it. :idunno:

 

[terryl965]

My God, that it pathetic.

That goes on alot at some schools last year my son was winning his matched the ref. called for the end of the round and the student kick him inthe back of the head, his coach said good. Some people have no respect for there competitors.
Terry

 

[arnisador]

Arnisador, I respect your opinion very much. However, MOST black belts under 150 pounds would not be able to take on a 250 lb. biker (assuming street experience, or why say biker with its connotation of a bad dude) on PCP.

That may have been an extreme example, I grant you. (It's my JKD instructor's favorite example of what we prepare for in training.) I wouldn't want to be in that position either. I guess the question is: Should a black belt be able to take on a typical street attacker, or should he or she be able to take on a typical attacker of similar height/weight/gender/etc.?

I understand the jr. black belt is different, and I also understand that traditionally a black belt has been considered a beginner's rank, not an expert's. But, I think there's still an expectation that a black belt has achieved some measure of skill and ability. Against what standard is it measured, where self-defense is concerned? I think there's no one answer. Good in one's weight class makes sense to me in Judo, but in Karate I'd expect a black belt to be able to defend himself or herself with some confidence in a street encounter, against a typical opponent. Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[Cryozombie]

Bignick, The school I attended did not give out Poom or Junior ranks. If you had a black belt you were a black belt. Didnt matter if you were 18 or 8...

 

[xayvong]

At my gym, we give jr. black belts to those under sixteen. but once they make it to sixteen they get there belts and uniform for free. so its kinda a birthday present.

all this talk reminds me when i went to thailand( I'm Thai and in taekwondo by the way) and trained with the muay thai instructers and students. they do alot of endurence training and tone the body to make them tougher. And when it came to there drills, they practiced kicking these pads on the instructers hands. when it came to the sparring I tried to use a muay thai stance and fight like them, of course i was thrashed about 5 times until the instructer noticed, he said he was happy i respected the art, and my modesty with mine,but he said i should use taekwondo so i don't get take such a beating. after that i didn't do to bad, they said my stance is really different, and my techniqes were different too. they said that I had alot of potential and should keep on doing it. and there, they respected me, and i respected them.and every one was happy. though my jaw hurt because one of them hit me with a spinning elbow.

after i was happy to know that most muaythai fighters in thailand don't have thing against people in other MA.

 

[MA-Caver]

TKD is not worthless it is what the practioner does with it that makes it worth or not.

Totally agree here.
I've a friend who was/is a BB in TKD and even he admits that his art is only good in certian circumstances (we're talking real world application here...right?). We were in his apartment and a cramped one at that and he acknowledged that if we were to get into it together (in the apt) chances are I'd probably come out ahead unless he switched from TKD to something else, which in his case would be the good-old-fashioned street brawling. I told him that it was probably true, but if we were outside the apt, say, in the parking lot with little or no cars... he'd probably come out ahead.
But as it was once observed... the victory goes to the one who wants it the most.
Same goes for the application of TKD in the ring. Lots of room there to move around in and to do the kicks that the art is so famous for. So it has value and it is a damn good physical/cardio conditioner so it has it's worth... but as Bushi jon said... it's what the user does with it in the circumstances presented that determines it's worth.

I'd have to agree that the question seems baiting, though I highly doubt Terry, that it was ever your intent to do so.
It's difficult to convey tonal qualities which help differentiate between a friendly rhetorical question from a feint to start a fight. Thank you for re-wording your question to help convey the intent. :asian:

 

[terryl965]

Totally agree here.
I've a friend who was/is a BB in TKD and even he admits that his art is only good in certian circumstances (we're talking real world application here...right?). We were in his apartment and a cramped one at that and he acknowledged that if we were to get into it together (in the apt) chances are I'd probably come out ahead unless he switched from TKD to something else, which in his case would be the good-old-fashioned street brawling. I told him that it was probably true, but if we were outside the apt, say, in the parking lot with little or no cars... he'd probably come out ahead.
But as it was once observed... the victory goes to the one who wants it the most.
Same goes for the application of TKD in the ring. Lots of room there to move around in and to do the kicks that the art is so famous for. So it has value and it is a damn good physical/cardio conditioner so it has it's worth... but as Bushi jon said... it's what the user does with it in the circumstances presented that determines it's worth.

I'd have to agree that the question seems baiting, though I highly doubt Terry, that it was ever your intent to do so.
It's difficult to convey tonal qualities which help differentiate between a friendly rhetorical question from a feint to start a fight. Thank you for re-wording your question to help convey the intent. :asian:

Thank you Ma-Caver I was never trying to bait anybody.
Have a nice day
terry