You ARE or WERE a Black Belt.

[Bill Mattocks]

Interesting to see how my post was interpreted.
FWIW I did not mean to insinuate rank is lost or revoked.
It had more to do with ones personal mindset.

With all due respect, then my answer is simple. If you have an opinion that a person is no longer a BB because X, Y, or Z, then that is your opinion. Matters to you, but otherwise completely worthless because your opinion (or mine) has no authority, no power, no ability to change facts; presuming we are not the ones who issued the BB in the first place.

One might say "What right has so-and-so to call himself a Black Belt these days?"

One might answer "What right have you to ask the question?"

Personal mindset and a buck fifty will buy you a cup of coffee. Well, it will where I buy coffee, anyway.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Side-note: I *am* a Marine. There are no 'ex-Marines'. And yes, it is, as you said, 'transformational'. One 'joins' the Army, Navy, or Air Force. One 'becomes' a Marine. With all due respect to Rush, some changes *are* permanent.

You still have to join to "become", and if you don't pass Army Basic training, you didn't "join" anything; but I'm ex-Army
Sean

 

[Earl Weiss]

With all due respect, then my answer is simple. If you have an opinion that a person is no longer a BB because X, Y, or Z, then that is your opinion. Matters to you, but otherwise completely worthless because your opinion (or mine) has no authority, no power, no ability to change facts; presuming we are not the ones who issued the BB in the first place.

quote]

OK, I guess my point is still not clear. Apologies for my poor communication skills. I will try again.

The issue is really not so much what others opinions are or should be. As we have seen they will run thru a rather large spectrum.

The issue is, what will your (generic "Your" not directed to anyone in particular) opinion of yourself be if you cease training?

 

[ArmorOfGod]

A studen't coworker told him that he can't train or teach anymore at his tkd teacher's school because he has not paid his yearly assocation dues in three years. I guess tkd black belts from that association are like milk and they go bad.:BSmeter:
It's all about money for some groups, but we all know that.
I come from a line of semi-independent schools where once you get a black belt, you have it hypothetically forever. You do not have to pay yearly fees to keep it valid and you are expected to train and keep your knowledge up. But, if you take a few years off due to life issues, you come back as your old rank and start training again.

AoG

 

[puunui]

The issue is, what will your (generic "Your" not directed to anyone in particular) opinion of yourself be if you cease training?

I opened a new bank account at a branch near my house about six months or so ago. The manager happened to be one of my students from 20 years ago. When we saw each other it was like a reunion and I could see his head filled with good memories of training. He made it to 1st Dan I think but didn't go past that. I don't think he was thinking much about whether he could still do any of it or whether he could defend himself or spar. He just remembered the good times that we had together and felt good about himself.

 

[oftheherd1]

A studen't coworker told him that he can't train or teach anymore at his tkd teacher's school because he has not paid his yearly assocation dues in three years. I guess tkd black belts from that association are like milk and they go bad.:BSmeter:
It's all about money for some groups, but we all know that.
I come from a line of semi-independent schools where once you get a black belt, you have it hypothetically forever. You do not have to pay yearly fees to keep it valid and you are expected to train and keep your knowledge up. But, if you take a few years off due to life issues, you come back as your old rank and start training again.

AoG

I agree he shouldn't be stripped of his belt, but I am inclined to think he must either continue to pay dues to support the school (and pay things like utilities and upkeep) or not expect to train there.

My situation is that I studied and taught until about 10 years ago when health issues got int the way. Then life sort of got in the way. Now I want to begin to study, at least on my own again. My tested ranks are registered with the korean Hapkido Association. There is no time limit. Of course, I am not at the skill level I was was, but I can regain a lot of it, and can still defend myself to an extent.

Bill Mattocks, I know you are a former Marine. My first three years in the Army were in the Airborne Infantry. It colored the next 26 years. I never left that mindset. It has served me well. So has it served most former Marines I know. FWIW, Marines are the only others I respect as I respect myself and former Airbone. (But I bet I can still kick your butt!

Remember, 1 Airborne whipping 5 non? Ask the Force Recon.

) Kidding. Peace brother! :asian:

 

[Earl Weiss]

I opened a new bank account at a branch near my house about six months or so ago. The manager happened to be one of my students from 20 years ago. When we saw each other it was like a reunion and I could see his head filled with good memories of training. He made it to 1st Dan I think but didn't go past that. I don't think he was thinking much about whether he could still do any of it or whether he could defend himself or spar. He just remembered the good times that we had together and felt good about himself.

Had something similar happen once. Coming back from World champs in Russia,was dog tired and standing at customs in O'Hare airport trying to pick the quickest line when I heard a voice say "Please step over here sir." (not something you usualy want to hear at customs.) The female customs officer starts asking me questions about where I had been and why. As I am giving her what I hope are good answers so I will avoid a cavity search, she says "I thought you looked familiar, I used to take classes from you. " Now I am hoping I didn't do anything to piss her off, and she says "Go right through, have a nice day and she signs off on my papers."

 

[puunui]

Had something similar happen once. Coming back from World champs in Russia,was dog tired and standing at customs in O'Hare airport trying to pick the quickest line when I heard a voice say "Please step over here sir." (not something you usualy want to hear at customs.) The female customs officer starts asking me questions about where I had been and why. As I am giving her what I hope are good answers so I will avoid a cavity search, she says "I thought you looked familiar, I used to take classes from you. " Now I am hoping I didn't do anything to piss her off, and she says "Go right through, have a nice day and she signs off on my papers."

You probably didn't withhold her 1st Dan certificate, because if you did, she might have subjected you to the random cavity search....

 

[StudentCarl]

I have a 90 year old friend who landed on Guadalcanal and a number of the other Pacific islands. Says the good ones didn't come home. He's got more fire to him than a lot of guys half his age. I've never seen him without a 1st Marine Division hat. What makes him special is not that he's walked the talk, but that he's true. It's no front; what you see is really him. I'm sure the experience transformed him, but he'll tell you about the guys who cracked up along the way.

My time was in the Army. We called non-Airborne soldiers "legs", but the term symbolized a different, lesser attitude: people who wouldn't go all out and keep going no matter what; people who felt that the minimum must be good enough because it's part of the standard. You've all seen 'em. Some folks are real, and some are just going through the motions.

Black belt is no different. I think, Earl, that both ARE and WERE fit, just on different people. When it's really a core part of you, then it's ARE. It's okay that there are a lot of "leg" black belts out there. There are so many great reasons to participate and learn Taekwondo, I believe it is great for anyone. For those in the WERE category, I hope it at least made some real improvements to their character and outlook. I just hope I'm kickin' the world in the A$$ when I'm 90 like my friend Joe. I'll be a black belt by then...oughta be interesting doin' forms with a walker.

 

[punisher73]

You stil have that degree in psych, do you not? Did you give that up because you are not a psychologist?

You are still an alum of your university are you not? Did you give that up because you stopped going to school?

You're a graduate of a police academy too, correct? Will you no longer be a graduate when you are no longer in LE?

As far as my friends, I know at least one did not work in the field, until very recently. She passed her PE when she was pregnant but chose to stay home with her kids instead.

Again, I would say I am an alumni, which implies that I no longer go to the university, I don't say that I am still attending the university. All of the questions you asked, I would say that I did with the past tense to show the accomplishment, but not something that I am currently doing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If someone gets to black belt and actually stays around (even for 1 lesson) then quits, to me they are always a black belt. If they get to black belt and you never see them again then they havent actually 'trained' as a black belt. If you quit straight away you would never even learn black belt form. If you complete year 10 in highschool then quit school, you would say you completed year 10, you wouldnt say you were a year 11 student because you never actually attended any classes in year 11. I view someone who gets to black belt and quits immediately as someone who completed 1st gup. In my books you have to train as a black belt to be a black belt. Thats just my 2 cents though, there is obviously no right or wrong answer here.

 

[oftheherd1]

I have a 90 year old friend who landed on Guadalcanal and a number of the other Pacific islands. Says the good ones didn't come home. He's got more fire to him than a lot of guys half his age. I've never seen him without a 1st Marine Division hat. What makes him special is not that he's walked the talk, but that he's true. It's no front; what you see is really him. I'm sure the experience transformed him, but he'll tell you about the guys who cracked up along the way.

My time was in the Army. We called non-Airborne soldiers "legs", but the term symbolized a different, lesser attitude: people who wouldn't go all out and keep going no matter what; people who felt that the minimum must be good enough because it's part of the standard. You've all seen 'em. Some folks are real, and some are just going through the motions.

Black belt is no different. I think, Earl, that both ARE and WERE fit, just on different people. When it's really a core part of you, then it's ARE. It's okay that there are a lot of "leg" black belts out there. There are so many great reasons to participate and learn Taekwondo, I believe it is great for anyone. For those in the WERE category, I hope it at least made some real improvements to their character and outlook. I just hope I'm kickin' the world in the A$$ when I'm 90 like my friend Joe. I'll be a black belt by then...oughta be interesting doin' forms with a walker.

That's about as well put as it can be. Any who were Airborne know, the worst thing we could be called was a quitter. It just wasn't allowed. I suppose Marines have some term likewise, but I don't know. Certainly the ones I know understood when they were given a mission, completion was the only option. Thanks for your post.

EDIT: I just remembered seeing a story on TV several years ago, about a martial artist who was wheel chair bound. Didn't seem to be a handicap to him. I believe he was a black belt at the time. If not, he certainly had the heart to be one.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Once you achieve some thing you have achieved it! However in the Martial Sciences we do have to keep our skill sets sharp otherwise they erode and there is simply no getting around that. So if you do not practice, well do not consider yourself a martial practitioner! If you were a blackbelt do not fool yourself or other people into believing that you are! The rank recognition, etc. cannot be taken away but in this field if you do not use your skills you lose them!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Once you achieve some thing you have achieved it! However in the Martial Sciences we do have to keep our skill sets sharp otherwise they erode and there is simply no getting around that. So if you do not practice, well do not consider yourself a martial practitioner! If you were a blackbelt do not fool yourself or other people into believing that you are! The rank recognition, etc. cannot be taken away but in this field if you do not use your skills you lose them!

It's not your call to make, is all I'm saying. Nothing personal.

Too many people thinking they can decide what other people ought to call themselves. Sticking to one's knitting seems a good idea. Is so-and-so a black belt anymore after 10 years of not training? I dunno. If he says he is one, that's his business.

I learned this fairly quickly after noting that even as a relative newcomer, certain black belts from other disciplines were fairly easy to knock on their cans. Am I to decide that based on that, no newly-minted black belt from style X, Y, or Z is really a black belt? Maybe the term is just too nebulous for an objective statement to be made. You say you're a black belt, cool. I don't care if you do or don't pack the gear, it's not my business. I try to just worry about myself.

 

[shima]

If someone gets to black belt and actually stays around (even for 1 lesson) then quits, to me they are always a black belt. If they get to black belt and you never see them again then they havent actually 'trained' as a black belt. If you quit straight away you would never even learn black belt form. If you complete year 10 in highschool then quit school, you would say you completed year 10, you wouldnt say you were a year 11 student because you never actually attended any classes in year 11. I view someone who gets to black belt and quits immediately as someone who completed 1st gup. In my books you have to train as a black belt to be a black belt. Thats just my 2 cents though, there is obviously no right or wrong answer here.

I think this is a good summary of my feelings toward black belt. That being said, this is also why I thoroughly believe there should be a probationary or student black belt period in schools, so that when someone walks around saying they are a 1st degree, they know that they truly and properly represent what it means to be a 1st degree.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Oh Bill you and I can agree on that and yet...... if we take what we do seriously and I do not mean someone who does it for a hobby. Tthen, well no matter what we are going to judge what other people say or do. (ie. human nature) Yet, in the end it means absolutely nothing in regards to my or your training!

One thing is a fact though in that if you do not practice these skills dilligently then you will lose them just like you would any other physical skill set!

(to what degree of course would depend on each individual)

 

[RRepster]

It's a lot like bragging about something you did as a kid in high school, perhaps. Maybe you're Al Bundy and you still talk about that touchdown you scored in a game. Yet the longer out it gets and the older Al gets, the more pathetic the boasting seems.

So, you've earned a black belt. Awesome, it's worth a pat on the back or two. But what if you earned it as a pup and you've not practiced for 15 years or more? Well... I wouldn't go around boasting about it.

why not? people talk about the old days playing x-ball over backyard bbq's all the time. What is the difference? In both instances (sports, or MA) it would take only 2 minutes or less to see if you can still perform. BUT just because you don't perform like you used to, - which btw NONE of us does as we age anyway, doesn't mean you've forgotten. They can make an excellent coach for their kids just like they do for little league baseball. Don't worry about what others do or say, worry about oneself.

 

[dancingalone]

why not? people talk about the old days playing x-ball over backyard bbq's all the time. What is the difference? In both instances (sports, or MA) it would take only 2 minutes or less to see if you can still perform. BUT just because you don't perform like you used to, - which btw NONE of us does as we age anyway, doesn't mean you've forgotten. They can make an excellent coach for their kids just like they do for little league baseball.

You'll note my example had to do with idle boasting - which I stand by. There's a big difference between quietly helping out some kids who might need a technical pointer and rolling out the Al Bundy war stories for unplaced vanity.

Don't worry about what others do or say, worry about oneself.

That's a time honored adage, yet it's not completely on point either. As a teacher of others and an advocate of my martial arts, I worry very much about the state of martial arts and MA training in general. I'm definitely affected by others, even if they are outside of my 'box'. YMMV.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Thanks to all who replied. Once again my query was not for how you view others, or how others might view you.

It was meant to target how each of you would view yourself.

As some have said each is welcome to have their own self view.

My own perspective is as long as your happy, I am happy, so long as it doesn't adversely affect someone else as in the case of a self deluding charlatan who fools people into thinking they are learning according to some correct standard. But that my froends would be fodeer for a different toipic.

 

[d1jinx]

Thanks to all who replied. Once again my query was not for how you view others, or how others might view you.

It was meant to target how each of you would view yourself.

As some have said each is welcome to have their own self view.

My own perspective is as long as your happy, I am happy, so long as it doesn't adversely affect someone else as in the case of a self deluding charlatan who fools people into thinking they are learning according to some correct standard. But that my froends would be fodeer for a different toipic.

Oh...

Why didnt you just say that in the first place....

I'M AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!