Here's a question for you Non TKD'ers

[IcemanSK]

I've trained w/ a lot of non-TKDers & gotten that same opinion. It usually compares TKD's kicks w/ Muay Thai (saying MT's are better) or (oddly) it comes out as some snide comment about Koreans. Saying they are this or that.....& its not in a positive light. Heck, at open tourneys you rarely see a TKD person in the "traditional forms division" because of assumed bias against their art.

I think TKD has a bad rep. in part because of its self-imposed limitations in Olympic-style fighting rules (ie. no hands). Few people outside the art get to see its full scope. Folks see Muay Thai & everything that's cool about it is right there. Aikido, too (big throws ala Steven Segal).

My two cents.

 

[MartialIntent]

That may have been an extreme example, I grant you. (It's my JKD instructor's favorite example of what we prepare for in training.) I wouldn't want to be in that position either. I guess the question is: Should a black belt be able to take on a typical street attacker, or should he or she be able to take on a typical attacker of similar height/weight/gender/etc.?

I understand the jr. black belt is different, and I also understand that traditionally a black belt has been considered a beginner's rank, not an expert's. But, I think there's still an expectation that a black belt has achieved some measure of skill and ability. Against what standard is it measured, where self-defense is concerned? I think there's no one answer. Good in one's weight class makes sense to me in Judo, but in Karate I'd expect a black belt to be able to defend himself or herself with some confidence in a street encounter, against a typical opponent. Otherwise, what's the point?

I wouldn't necessarily say this was an extreme example at all - if YOUR martial art can't provide you with some form of defense against a 250lb biker type, then you can never claim it to be feasible as a self-defense art. We certainly CANNOT expect attackers to be "typical" in build, strength, speed or martial arts training. Having this attitude is naive and dangerous. We always include training to handle the extreme situations as the aforementioned typical scenarios seldom ever occur.

TKD, in my opinion [friend has been practising for about 8 yrs] is too caught up in competition and not focussed enough on being a rounded MA. However! I have seen several TKD fighters break out of the shackles of competition point-scoring and present themselves as not only potent but fearsome opponents. This would be my wish for TKD - that it would widen it's net a little. Hope that makes sense.

Respects!

 

[Marginal]

I wouldn't necessarily say this was an extreme example at all - if YOUR martial art can't provide you with some form of defense against a 250lb biker type, then you can never claim it to be feasible as a self-defense art.

That statement seems to imply that the biker type's untrained in any MA, and has no weapons. Brilliant assumptions to operate on while challenging such a type.

 

[Brother John]

Originally Posted by MartialIntent
I wouldn't necessarily say this was an extreme example at all - if YOUR martial art can't provide you with some form of defense against a 250lb biker type, then you can never claim it to be feasible as a self-defense art.

That statement seems to imply that the biker type's untrained in any MA, and has no weapons. Brilliant assumptions to operate on while challenging such a type.

No. Actually, it doesn't.
It's saying (If it was left w/in the context it was written in) that...

We certainly CANNOT expect attackers to be "typical" in build, strength, speed or martial arts training. Having this attitude is naive and dangerous.

In other words, saying that the "biker type" would be large and husky, untrained, out of shape or not....etc. is an attitude that is "naive and dangerous". In other words....don't Assume that they are or are not trained, don't assume that they do or do not have a weapon or access to one, don't assume that they are, or will act, alone......etc.

So, Marginal, Martial Intent seems to be saying NOT to assume, but you're claiming (sarcastically) that he's making a "Brilliant assumption"..when he's talking about NOT assuming.
You might not want to make such a "Brilliant Assumption" in regards to what someone is saying until you actually READ what they are saying.

Your Brother
John

 

[MartialIntent]

That statement seems to imply that the biker type's untrained in any MA, and has no weapons. Brilliant assumptions to operate on while challenging such a type.

I think you may have picked me up wrong on this. I'd assume that a 250lb biker type could hit hard and do damage. Furthermore, I ALWAYS assume opponents have martial arts training - it is pure conceit to think otherwise.

What I'm saying is that if an art does not train to face such extremely dangerous opponents [instead focussing on "typical" opponents ie. an in your weight range, opportunist, unarmed thief] then practitioners of such an art are deluding themselves into thinking they have provided themselves with a firm foundation in self-defense.

Thank you also Brother John for elaborating.

Apologies for thread hijacking [this was in response to Arnisador's earlier point which I felt was overlooked]. :asian:

Respects!

 

[Marginal]

What I'm saying is that if an art does not train to face such extremely dangerous opponents [instead focussing on "typical" opponents ie. an in your weight range, opportunist, unarmed thief] then practitioners of such an art are deluding themselves into thinking they have provided themselves with a firm foundation in self-defense.

In that case, how much firearms training do you practice within your art? Are all BB's packing?

 

[Sam]

I'm a non-believer because I have seen the people that have come to my school from various TKD schools, with one thing in common; they all equally suck.

 

[Marginal]

Wow. Do you at least tell them to stop constantly inhaling?

 

[Brother John]

I'm a non-believer because I have seen the people that have come to my school from various TKD schools, with one thing in common; they all equally suck.

WOW hon.... That's pretty darn severe.
I'd suggest you try to get to know more TKD'ists! Really.
Like I tell me students:

"The day you underestimate a Tae Kwan Do'ist, is the day you may find what shoes taste like."

haha...
Keep an open mind Sam.
They don't ALL suck.

Your Brother
John

 

[bignick]

I'm a non-believer because I have seen the people that have come to my school from various TKD schools, with one thing in common; they all equally suck.

How?

 

[terryl965]

I'm a non-believer because I have seen the people that have come to my school from various TKD schools, with one thing in common; they all equally suck.

Sam I have come to respect you but the statement, why would you even say that. I hope I get to meet you and then you can tell me to my face I suck.
Terry

 

[SAVAGE]

I THINK TKD SUCKS!!!!

WHY BECAUSE IT DOESNT WORK IN UFC!!!

GRAPPLERS ROCK!!!

hehehe...big enough for ya! Well I dont really think TKD sucks...but I sucked at it! I got to green belt and thought that my body type is not built for this...so I stuck with HKD and JUDO...but I was learning WTF..and it was all sporty no block kind of thing.....but believe you me my freind...becaus eof TKD the people at my Karate dojo freak because i can out kick them..and I fight like a tkd match up with karateka..they dont know what to make of it!

TKD has alot more holes in it than the arts I learn...but it is as effective as you make it..I am sure there are TKD artists here that would beat me right up...but my opinion comes from a first hand experience of one type of TKD!

 

[terryl965]

Well over my years I have beaten up some Grapplers and some other Arts as well and over that time they have gotten the better of me too. It is not necessary the Art but the Man or Woman behind the Art.

I'm so tired of the mases not knowing about real TKD just the sport!!!!!

Terry

 

[Marginal]

TKD has alot more holes in it than the arts I learn...but it is as effective as you make it..I am sure there are TKD artists here that would beat me right up...but my opinion comes from a first hand experience of one type of TKD!

Yes, but bear in mind that olympic sparring rules don't automatically distate what's being taught ay any given dojang. Some are very sport oriented, some aren't.

Not a whole lot different than the differences you might hit in a Judo dojo. Some will focus more on the SD aspects, some will training exclusively for the Olympics with little consideration given to techs that don't have high percentage applications under olympic rules.

Or in a Kenpo dojo. In my town, there's an established Kenpo school, and there's a brand new one that just sprang up across the street. Universal Studio of Self Defense or something like that. Still claims to be Kenpo, but the stories I've read about that brand of Kenpo aren't flattering.

Or Stephen Olliver's Mile High Karate. Mixes Karate, TKD, and MT techniques if you go by the web site. Got a flier not too long ago, featured a BB demonstrating various kicks, all with the toes pointing straight out...

 

[Sam]

it sounded worse than I meant it.

The reason I don't believe in TKD, is because I have yet to meet in real life a tkd practitioner who didnt do silly things like tell me they would kick me in the face with a jump spinning kick in a street fight.

Not saying there arnt good TKD practioners...

I've just never met any in real life.

 

[terryl965]

it sounded worse than I meant it.

The reason I don't believe in TKD, is because I have yet to meet in real life a tkd practitioner who didnt do silly things like tell me they would kick me in the face with a jump spinning kick in a street fight.

Not saying there arnt good TKD practioners...

I've just never met any in real life.

One day you will one day.
Terry
PS It did sound bad though Sam

 

[Marginal]

The reason I don't believe in TKD, is because I have yet to meet in real life a tkd practitioner who didnt do silly things like tell me they would kick me in the face with a jump spinning kick in a street fight.

Did they spar like idiots too, or did they just say stupid things?

 

[shesulsa]

Hey, y'all - art trashing isn't what MartialTalk is about.

Perhaps instead of using words like "suck" ... how about you folks who don't think highly of TKD give some specific examples of its lack of viability in your opinions?

 

[tshadowchaser]

as said above or go to a TKD school and do a little sparing with their class for a night or two.
There are good , bad, indifferent, in all arts. There are talkers, braggers, and just plain idiots, in all arts.
The question was whaer and how do you draw your conclusions about TKD. Now is it from talking to tkd students, to your classmates, from hear say, from practice against TKD people, or what?

 

[SAVAGE]

Yes, but bear in mind that olympic sparring rules don't automatically distate what's being taught ay any given dojang. Some are very sport oriented, some aren't.

Exactly..I can only comment on my experience with TKD..and that was with a sport dojang..and I can and have wiped the floor with alot of them who came to drink in the bar I worked in!

I have never seen real TKD...so I cant comment on that...but the holes in Olympic TKD as a MA...well you could drive a truck through them!