Five Martial Arts Principles

[AngryHobbit]

Beware taking advice from strangers on the internet.

No worries. I don't. I would research something extensively before acting on it.

 

[Primal Monk]

Have you tried straight arm work? Maximal contraction and strength in a straight arm position is a core aspect of a powerful punch. It's the difference of being hit by a sack of sand or dirt, and hit by an iron bar. Besides that is the weak muscles in your hips, low back, glutes, feet, ankles, calves, knees... etc. The kinetic chain. The transfer of power, torque, tension... can be painful. Finding pain when trying to hit harder is a good thing. Or slowness, if your body stops you before hurting yourself. If you apply a "battle to the death" mentality though, you will push the weak and injury-prone tissue into action rather than your body stopping yourself. This is a good thing, as you know your weak points now. You can take it safe and go for some strength and endurance training to shore up the weakness (straight/long limb being best usually, as your joints an dbody contract maximally in order to stay together and avoid injury aka strengthen). That's why active stretching can be very good; such as getting into a split and holding your body above the injury point with your own muscle. Similar principle, just make sure you can hold yourself up and have something to catch yourself with.
Connective tissues around your joints have to be incredible strong in order to decrease the space that the liquid in your joints is in whilst having the strength to include dynamism in the liquid's pressure changes in order to act effectively as shocks. Weak joint muscle/connective tissues can't squeeze in a controlled and appropriate manner to distribute force safely by manipulating the liquid and bones methodically and vigorously.

You might not have a problem with power now, but I hope my advice is something new and you can recognize the sense in it.

I work out and stretch almost every day - with a variety of exercise, including core, balancing, strength, and cardio. I don't think you fully understand the kind of physical limitations I am talking about. I'll give you an example: I have osteoma in both hips. It is a benign bone growth, not anything lethal, but something that can seriously limit how far your joint can go and in which direction. In my case, to execute a high round kick parallel to the floor in the form we were taught as classical, I have to lean back so far I can no longer see my target. Otherwise, I literally cannot get my leg up - my joint doesn't work that way. So, I don't do those particular kicks. I had to develop a modification, where I can reach both height and strength in a different way.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to absolutely state that "pain is a good thing". There is soreness from exercise - it happens. That type of pain eventually goes away as muscles develop. However, there is also pain from tearing tissue or a cracked bone. Telling someone it's a good thing, because it's all part of the practice is misleading, cruel, and downright harmful, because it can worsen the injury and impair one's ability to train for the rest of his or her life.[/QUOTE]

I said "Finding pain is a good thing. [...] you know your weak points now." and "You can take it safe and go for some strength and endurance training to shore up the weakness..."; As for your condition, I read that the lactic acid from endurance training (or some other acid) will remove bone that's in the way over time. Maybe you need to produce this lactic acid with endurance training for your hip muscles while staying out of the pain zone. The bone groove in the shoulder will expand if the muscle running through it hypertrophies, as long as the hypertrophy is slow enough and there's enough lactic acid from exercising to make its way.

 

[Primal Monk]

It's not about whether the person is coordinated or not. It's about whether they've trained the muscles to the appropriate coordination for a specific activity. Unless there's a VERY similar single activity in gymnastics (similar to deadlift) their muscles haven't been trained to coordinate for that activity. That lack of trained coordination limits applied strength.

Yet it's similar in the sense of being "maximal" movements, whilst engaging similar muscle groups. If you teach the gymnast proper form on day 1, they'll deadlift 2+x their body weight. No point arguing it anymore. I've spoken my piece, it's redundant past this point.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Then "for the record", "They are haughty and elitist, and cling to their status as "science" to give themselves the authority to determine the true and false of anything and everything, often whilst borrowing the opinion of other scientists rather than forming their own from the original science experiments, observations and systematic modeling. They then explain away reality that contradicts their views to protect their pride and authority." --> ".. and cling" should have been "... clinging" as in they are haughty and elitist for clinging to their so on and so forth. That makes them literally hypo-critical (no negation) of their source that they derive from to justify their hyper-critical negation (the emphasis not on the validity of the attitude but of the authenticity of their claims as to whether something is possible or causation of something). Whether this attitude on its own is a bad thing is another discussion. I'm claiming they're wrong, and taking a critical approach to the sources of information and "common sense" regarding human ability, learning, and application in the context of fighting and fitness.

Except at that point, you had no knowledge of why people had an issue with it, and just that they did. The only two comments was someone saying jeezus, and someone making a multiple facepalm post. You then made an assumption, called them elitist, snobbish, inferior (to yourself), and ranted about what you thought there issue was.

Clearly though you have no actual interest in discourse or feedback, so enjoy.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I said "Finding pain is a good thing. [...] you know your weak points now." and "You can take it safe and go for some strength and endurance training to shore up the weakness..."; As for your condition, I read that the lactic acid from endurance training (or some other acid) will remove bone that's in the way over time. Maybe you need to produce this lactic acid with endurance training for your hip muscles while staying out of the pain zone. The bone groove in the shoulder will expand if the muscle running through it hypertrophies, as long as the hypertrophy is slow enough and there's enough lactic acid from exercising to make its way.

And I suppose you have consulted extensively with qualified medical professionals to confirm that exercising to a point where lactic acid in your body starts removing bone is a safe and sane thing to do. Do you?

There are studies that discuss the impact of lactic acid bacteria on bone structure - that is true. However, they approach the subject at the microscopic level and point out impacts of environment, diet, stress level, and unique properties of one's organism - all of them playing into the equation.

Personally, reaching the level of physical activity to the point of altering one's chemical balance to the extent you describe, doesn't sound safe to me at all. I'd rather just find alternative strikes.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Engaging the same muscles doesn't train them for the activity. Part (a large part) of "strength" is coordinating the muscles appropriately for the exercise. @jobo can speak to that better than I, as can some others.

Indeed. You can use the same muscle group in multiple different ways to produce different outcomes. For example, I practice both springboard diving and pole dancing. Both activities require you to engage the shoulder muscles, but they are engaged in completely different ways for each activity. In diving you push up through the shoulders to create extra rotation, whereas in pole dancing you roll the shoulders inwards to provide more stability as you spin around the pole. Same muscle group, totally different use and outcome.

And since you were talking about gymnasts lifting heavy things, here you go.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Indeed. You can use the same muscle group in multiple different ways to produce different outcomes. For example, I practice both springboard diving and pole dancing. Both activities require you to engage the shoulder muscles, but they are engaged in completely different ways for each activity. In diving you push up through the shoulders to create extra rotation, whereas in pole dancing you roll the shoulders inwards to provide more stability as you spin around the pole. Same muscle group, totally different use and outcome.

That is fascinating! Both sound like terrifically challenging and athletic exercise forms. I know nothing at all about springboard diving (other than... you know... what one might see on TV) and a tiny little bit about pole dancing. You are my hero for taking on both of those - that must be quite a challenge. Amazing...

And to your point - in many yoga poses, your focus on broadening your back and "sliding" your shoulders back and down to avoid strain and maintain stability. So, yet another use for the same muscle group producing yet a different result.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm fine with being condescending. Descend love. My constitution needs it anyhow. It's for my health.



Gymnasts are incredibly coordinated, at maximal loads/tensions. They both have maximal effort engagements of similar muscle groups. The only thing lacking are the glutes and hams, which if the athlete has any strength of, they can still use to accomplish a 2x or 2.5x deadlift. Gymnasts will perform bodyweight squats if the coach or athlete are any good and don't want chicken legs.

I just want to clarify something here. Do you mean that gymnasts don't use their glutes or that deadlifting doesn't use the glutes? If you were talking about the gymnasts not using their glutes I would wonder if you knew anything about gymnastics at all, since in order to maintain a handstand with proper form you need to engage your lower abs and your glutes. Failing to do so will cause you to arch your back and lose balance.

 

[Primal Monk]

Except at that point, you had no knowledge of why people had an issue with it, and just that they did. The only two comments was someone saying jeezus, and someone making a multiple facepalm post. You then made an assumption, called them elitist, snobbish, inferior (to yourself), and ranted about what you thought there issue was.

Clearly though you have no actual interest in discourse or feedback, so enjoy.

lovely ********. I focus on trends, psychology, modern and retro/ancient training, thought currents, expert advice and opinions, critiques, etc. for anything that interests me. If you want something more penetrating, how about this: People lack the courage to push themselves outside what is believed possible. This is as simple as dealing with the unending doubts you have every single night, or whether you can really bend at that angle and not snap, or otherwise. People then develop a complex surrounding this cowardice (justified or not), trying to convince others that they're full of **** when they say you can do it, and that you can bend at that angle, or that you can train that often and that hard if you have the passion and the diligence, or the spirit, to not listen to your body when it tries to jerk or fall limp or rest or cry or squirm or die a little when performing some exercise or movement or just to get up and start all over again the next day. When you tell yourself, "Then die.", you develop the tenacity to actually achieve great things. This parallel is drawn with the case of the super-mom who can lift a half ton when her child is under the vehicle; there's no way out, do it or die, it's all on the line. When you have that kind of unity of purpose you can achieve that sort of thing.
I have plenty of lovely knowledge of why people have a problem with it. I try to draw it out explicitly and "take the punches" so I have an opportunity to have a clear and non-vague rather than indirect discussion about it.
It's tic for tac, and don't say it isn't.

And I suppose you have consulted extensively with qualified medical professionals to confirm that exercising to a point where lactic acid in your body starts removing bone is a safe and sane thing to do. Do you?

There are studies that discuss the impact of lactic acid bacteria on bone structure - that is true. However, they approach the subject at the microscopic level and point out impacts of environment, diet, stress level, and unique properties of one's organism - all of them playing into the equation.

Personally, reaching the level of physical activity to the point of altering one's chemical balance to the extent you describe, doesn't sound safe to me at all. I'd rather just find alternative strikes.

lactic acid is produced in every single physical activity of strain. It's the "burn" when exercising. When the bone groove in your shoulder is too small, due to muscle hypertrophy, it will widen by the lactic acid as mechanism. I suggested that if you tried exercising your hips in a way that doesn't hurt,whatever that range of motion is, it would begin to dissolve the bone growth. You already exercise your hips. I'm not suggesting anything radical. More burn in a more targeted fashion (hips, glutes, hip flexors, etc.), more lactic acid, faster the bone growth will dissolve and the more range of motion you have.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

That is fascinating! Both sound like terrifically challenging and athletic exercise forms. I know nothing at all about springboard diving (other than... you know... what one might see on TV) and a tiny little bit about pole dancing. You are my hero for taking on both of those - that must be quite a challenge. Amazing...

And to your point - in many yoga poses, your focus on broadening your back and "sliding" your shoulders back and down to avoid strain and maintain stability. So, yet another use for the same muscle group producing yet a different result.

Thanks. I haven't been training pole dancing for very long but it is very rewarding, not to mention the hardest workout I've ever had. It's rather curious, comparing diving and pole. Diving is much simpler technically but requires a lot of guts. If you don't trust your body and put 100% into the movement, you will fail. On the flip side I find pole dancing physically harder and more complex.

 

[Primal Monk]

I just want to clarify something here. Do you mean that gymnasts don't use their glutes or that deadlifting doesn't use the glutes? If you were talking about the gymnasts not using their glutes I would wonder if you knew anything about gymnastics at all, since in order to maintain a handstand with proper form you need to engage your lower abs and your glutes. Failing to do so will cause you to arch your back and lose balance.

Gymnasts don't engage glutes or hams maximally, unlike their upper body.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Gymnasts don't engage glutes or hams maximally, unlike their upper body.

It depends what discipline they are doing. The rings require a lot less glute usage than the parallel bars or the pommel horse for example, but all the disciplines use the glutes at least a bit.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Thanks. I haven't been training pole dancing for very long but it is very rewarding, not to mention the hardest workout I've ever had. It's rather curious, comparing diving and pole. Diving is much simpler technically but requires a lot of guts. If you don't trust your body and put 100% into the movement, you will fail. On the flip side I find pole dancing physically harder and more complex.

I can only imagine. I am terrified of heights, and the closest I come to conquering them is making myself climb the tall obstacles during mud runs. So, I have huge respect for anyone who can stand at about the height of a four-story building and not go crazy before having to jump down.

I should do some research and see if there is a good pole-dancing class in the area. I love dancing, and this sounds fascinating and challenging. I don't know if, at my age, this is something I can conquer but hey... no law against trying, right?

One of my favorite books also describes the art of hyppoginnes - horse-dancing. Most information about its history is lost, but, from the little that we know, it originated from the legendary Amazons. Not the mythical creatures, but the real women of Eastern, Central, and Southern Europe who, fed up with their male-dominated societies, left their homes and gathered together to form their own city-state - Thermodontus.

Being excellent warriors and riders, they eventually evolved the horseback riding to the level of a true art. Hyppoginnes performers danced in the nude, save for a traditional bracelet, while riding a horse bareback. The dance involved both a series of balancing moves on the horse, and a series of forms the dancer performed sliding to one and then the other side of the horse, her body forming sacred letters and symbols, with the horse as the backdrop.

Now wouldn't that be fun to learn?

 

[Primal Monk]

It depends what discipline they are doing. The rings require a lot less glute usage than the parallel bars or the pommel horse for example, but all the disciplines use the glutes at least a bit.

Which isn't too relevant in a maximal movement like the deadlift. If they do a large set of bw squats (relative to their strength/endurance level), they'll have done more for their glutes and thighs (for the purpose of deadlift) than from 30 minutes of gymnastic work. Gymnastics is great for deadlift though, and vice versa, as the deadlift engages the grip, arms and especially back and core, which gymnasts have incredible strength, coordination and endurance in.

 

[Primal Monk]

lovely ********. I focus on trends, psychology, modern and retro/ancient training, thought currents, expert advice and opinions, critiques, etc. for anything that interests me. If you want something more penetrating, how about this: People lack the courage to push themselves outside what is believed possible. This is as simple as dealing with the unending doubts you have every single night, or whether you can really bend at that angle and not snap, or otherwise. People then develop a complex surrounding this cowardice (justified or not), trying to convince others that they're full of **** when they say you can do it, and that you can bend at that angle, or that you can train that often and that hard if you have the passion and the diligence, or the spirit, to not listen to your body when it tries to jerk or fall limp or rest or cry or squirm or die a little when performing some exercise or movement or just to get up and start all over again the next day. When you tell yourself, "Then die.", you develop the tenacity to actually achieve great things. This parallel is drawn with the case of the super-mom who can lift a half ton when her child is under the vehicle; there's no way out, do it or die, it's all on the line. When you have that kind of unity of purpose you can achieve that sort of thing.
I have plenty of lovely knowledge of why people have a problem with it. I try to draw it out explicitly and "take the punches" so I have an opportunity to have a clear and non-vague rather than indirect discussion about it.
It's tic for tac, and don't say it isn't.

I'll retract this statement since it's inflammatory and I have bodily inflammation issues. Intense stress requires intense rejuvenation techniques and efforts; medicines and tonics can do this, as can a diet built to resolve training stresses, as can a very large calorie surplus, as can intensive stretching and flow yoga, self massage, breathing practices and meditation; beyond that are the more "mystical" things, such as qi gong and acupressure, or visualization techniques, or prayer.
Don't do what you're not prepared to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Indeed. You can use the same muscle group in multiple different ways to produce different outcomes. For example, I practice both springboard diving and pole dancing. Both activities require you to engage the shoulder muscles, but they are engaged in completely different ways for each activity. In diving you push up through the shoulders to create extra rotation, whereas in pole dancing you roll the shoulders inwards to provide more stability as you spin around the pole. Same muscle group, totally different use and outcome.

And since you were talking about gymnasts lifting heavy things, here you go.

Those guys had way too much fun with that. Kudos to both of them!

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I can only imagine. I am terrified of heights, and the closest I come to conquering them is making myself climb the tall obstacles during mud runs. So, I have huge respect for anyone who can stand at about the height of a four-story building and not go crazy before having to jump down.

I should do some research and see if there is a good pole-dancing class in the area. I love dancing, and this sounds fascinating and challenging. I don't know if, at my age, this is something I can conquer but hey... no law against trying, right?

One of my favorite books also describes the art of hyppoginnes - horse-dancing. Most information about its history is lost, but, from the little that we know, it originated from the legendary Amazons. Not the mythical creatures, but the real women of Eastern, Central, and Southern Europe who, fed up with their male-dominated societies, left their homes and gathered together to form their own city-state - Thermodontus.

Being excellent warriors and riders, they eventually evolved the horseback riding to the level of a true art. Hyppoginnes performers danced in the nude, save for a traditional bracelet, while riding a horse bareback. The dance involved both a series of balancing moves on the horse, and a series of forms the dancer performed sliding to one and then the other side of the horse, her body forming sacred letters and symbols, with the horse as the backdrop.

Now wouldn't that be fun to learn?

It's not just about the heights, but the movements you are doing in diving. The first time you do an inward dive on poolside is very scary, because your mind is telling you that you are going to hit your head on the board:

 

[AngryHobbit]

It's not just about the heights, but the movements you are doing in diving. The first time you do an inward dive on poolside is very scary, because your mind is telling you that you are going to hit your head on the board: View attachment 21227

 

[Xue Sheng]

The 7 Principles Of Shaolin Martial Arts

1. Never Give Up
2. Always Practice
3. Integrate Yin And Yang
4. Turn Yourself Into Zero
5. Nurture Your Body
6. Apply Great Effort
7. Cut Off Desire

3 Principles in Traditional Martial Arts to Strike with Power

Principle 1 – Using the entire body to strike with.
Principle 2 – Sinking your hips and dropping your weight.
Principle 3 – Posture and Relaxation.

Philosophy of Martial Arts - Shen Wu

In summary, it is important to remember that an almost unlimited number of efficient martial techniques (those based on true balance and natural power, which allow us to use our strengths against an opponent's weaknesses and remove us from the threat of physical harm as quickly as possible) are created and developed from a relatively small number of basic principles of body use and technical application. It may be helpful to think of techniques (including the methods of body use as well as martial applications) as being physical manifestations of underlying principles. The principles of body use and application are the unchanging foundations of unlimited technical expression. And the focused awareness of mind and body unity in practice is the method through which martial movements and techniques become internalized, and therefore useful. These principles and their method of internalization form the essence of martial art.

 

[Primal Monk]

The 7 Principles Of Shaolin Martial Arts


3 Principles in Traditional Martial Arts to Strike with Power


Philosophy of Martial Arts - Shen Wu

Thanks. I'm familiar with these principles. I noticed at least one mistake while skimming through. On the 3 principles of the second link, the author makes a mistake in why you drop your shoulders and avoid punching with your traps; it's not because "tense muscles are slow", but that you should be engaging the lats to properly transfer force from your lower body into the strike and increase total stability, improving the kinetic chain and directionality of the force.
Soft bodies learn technique better, but hard bodies actually execute many of them. Most people can't learn or do much when under pressure and in crisis, so how do you expect your body to? Others are built differently, but soft body techniques are still better at certain junctions. It's not a striking principle; more of an issue of physical and mental conditioning.