Five Martial Arts Principles

[Kung Fu Wang]

All MA systems are built on "principles".

Some principles are down to earth such as:

- Get both if you can, otherwise get one first and get the other afterward.
- 1 is better than 1,2. 1,2 is better than 1,2,3.
- You should give before you can take.
- ...

Some principles are so abstract that it can only confuse you and server you no usage such as:

- Cruelty.
- One.
- ...

IMO, the OP's diagram is too "abstract".

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It's essentially hypocritical if I act elitist and snobbish by borrowed authority to dismiss the possibility of something, which is the context of the accusation. I'm challenging held beliefs in a confrontational and critical manner rather than with leading questions and comments (yielding and manipulative manner). It's hypercritical or just critical, not hypocritical.

Nope. Your specifically being hypocritical. You complained about elitism and snobbishness (not where they come from), while at the same time being elitist and snobbish.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Elitism and snobbishness gets you nowhere, when you are actually inferior. It should be called Martial Science or Martial Mastery. If chemistry principles or lessons were in a children's cartoon, it would be legitimate either way. Same with anything. The writers of the manga have over 10 years of experience (at least two of them do) and they'll go to matches to learn more.
The 'repressed' human psyche finds outlet in creative works; and in accord with ancient and now Jungian psychology, the human unconscious is largely understood as a collective one. With this in mind, I look at creative works as an expression of locked human potential attempting to signal itself into existence. The more intense and volumous the genre or species of fiction, the more likely that human potential is severely 'repressed'/suppressed.
"The drive to achieve or have something is not the ability to do so" some may say. But that is incredibly unAmerican, unManly, and are made by people who are like crabs in a bucket. I spit on those fools.

Manga are comics created in Japan or by creators in the Japanese language, conforming to a style developed in Japan in the late 19th century.

Reality

1. 
   the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them
2. 
   the state or quality of having existence or substance.
   "youth, when death has no reality"

 

[AngryHobbit]

I've had the exact same principles in mind, but saw it nicely represented in the Kengan Asura manga.View attachment 21224

I would add "Physical Fitness", but besides that, this seems like a complete diagram.

Well... if you think about it... one does not necessarily HAVE to be physically fit at the start of one's practice. And then, if the practice is consistent and in proper form, physical fitness won't be far behind. So, it could be argued it is built in.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Elitism and snobbishness gets you nowhere, when you are actually inferior.

Actually, I don't think being an elitist and a snob is a good idea at any point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Once again, you misrepresent what I've said with these prepared responses based on bias and prejudices that you can't seem to put aside to have a direct conversation with someone. Must I speak to you through your own cultural lense, and handicap myself severely in order to evoke a non-cookie cutter response?

You neglect the concepts of wisdom and knowledge in favor of responding to the flavor of my initial post, which was a snapshot from a manga of which I asked what people thought of the principles outlined. I also explained that I already held the principles in my mind prior to seeing them in the manga. You seem to be responding to an imagined nostalgic and naive emotional charge rather than look at what I'm saying explicitly. Physics do indeed exist, but their application to the human body is simplistic and unsophisticated in the context of training and combat.

Here is a link showing how a pulley system can result in lifting a 90 kg object with 15 kg of human force: The 6:1 Pulley System - ropebook

Here's a modified version of the original picture at the top, setting what I believe to be the human potential as it is relative to elite human athletes/sportsman:

View attachment 21226

Your condescending tone does not add credibility to your statements.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really no. Gymnasts can be found often with a strong posterior chain necessary for heavy deadlifts though. The point was about the translatability of certain disciplines. Heavy lifters can't do gymnastics but gymnasts can lift heavy (besides squats). It's asymmetric which is important to identify so that you can train effectively. If that information is irrelevant to you it's because you don't care about effectiveness.

Having a strong muscle set doesn't translate to being able to do that deadlift. There's neurological development necessary for that skill (deadlift) to develop to a high level. So, no, it's unlikely a gymnast who has never performed weight lifting (first time in the gym, per your original post on that) would step up and deadlift more than 2 times his body weight.

 

[frank raud]

All Muscle, No Iron | T Nation

Give me your money.

Isn't it curious that if you type in JJ Gregory gymnast in google( the exceptional student mentioned in the above article), what comes up are discussions about the article, questions about who JJ Gregory is, but no mentions of him competing, no mention of him winning the 1993 rings championship(well there is, but it is showing a list of all 1993 gymnastic champions and his name is not on the list). It's almost like the coach made him up to promote the book he wrote about using gymnastics to gain strength.

 

[Primal Monk]

Nope. Your specifically being hypocritical. You complained about elitism and snobbishness (not where they come from), while at the same time being elitist and snobbish.

Then "for the record", "They are haughty and elitist, and cling to their status as "science" to give themselves the authority to determine the true and false of anything and everything, often whilst borrowing the opinion of other scientists rather than forming their own from the original science experiments, observations and systematic modeling. They then explain away reality that contradicts their views to protect their pride and authority." --> ".. and cling" should have been "... clinging" as in they are haughty and elitist for clinging to their so on and so forth. That makes them literally hypo-critical (no negation) of their source that they derive from to justify their hyper-critical negation (the emphasis not on the validity of the attitude but of the authenticity of their claims as to whether something is possible or causation of something). Whether this attitude on its own is a bad thing is another discussion. I'm claiming they're wrong, and taking a critical approach to the sources of information and "common sense" regarding human ability, learning, and application in the context of fighting and fitness.

Manga are comics created in Japan or by creators in the Japanese language, conforming to a style developed in Japan in the late 19th century.

Reality

1. 
   the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them
2. 
   the state or quality of having existence or substance.
   "youth, when death has no reality"

Like I said, I just like the diagram. I already held similar principles in my mind beforehand.

Well... if you think about it... one does not necessarily HAVE to be physically fit at the start of one's practice. And then, if the practice is consistent and in proper form, physical fitness won't be far behind. So, it could be argued it is built in.

A lot of that is lower intensity though. And proper form isn't necessarily proper without the necessary power. You might be able to do the form, but your joints and muscles and bones might not be strong enough to deliver a strong hit or move very quickly. Since this is about combat, the singular principle is body damage, domination or negation.

Your condescending tone does not add credibility to your statements.

It's "anti-authoritarian"; or, "when death has no reality" (jk-ing)

Having a strong muscle set doesn't translate to being able to do that deadlift. There's neurological development necessary for that skill (deadlift) to develop to a high level. So, no, it's unlikely a gymnast who has never performed weight lifting (first time in the gym, per your original post on that) would step up and deadlift more than 2 times his body weight.

Gymnastics engages many of the same muscle groups. Traps, Lats, Back. If they ever performed a squat in their life, then they would have the necessary strength to deadlift 2x bodyweight. A high level gymnast could likely perform 2.5x bodyweight.

Isn't it curious that if you type in JJ Gregory gymnast in google( the exceptional student mentioned in the above article), what comes up are discussions about the article, questions about who JJ Gregory is, but no mentions of him competing, no mention of him winning the 1993 rings championship(well there is, but it is showing a list of all 1993 gymnastic champions and his name is not on the list). It's almost like the coach made him up to promote the book he wrote about using gymnastics to gain strength.

I couldn't find anything on him either. I guess he's a schmuck. "Gymnast tries deadlifting" isn't getting me anywhere either, so I can't find a clear case where a gymnast that doesn't deadlift tries deadlifting. Unprovable either way for now.

 

[Balrog]

I've had the exact same principles in mind, but saw it nicely represented in the Kengan Asura manga.

I would add "Physical Fitness", but besides that, this seems like a complete diagram.

Welcome to the board, PM. Interesting diagram.

As far as the limitations of the human body, they are numerous. Most of them can be overcome by simple goal-setting, then creating a plan to achieve the goal, then working the plan. Some of them can't be and setting a goal to overcome them will fail because the goal is not realistic.

Bottom line - work every day toward becoming a better person mentally and physically.

 

[Primal Monk]

All MA systems are built on "principles".

Some principles are down to earth such as:

- Get both if you can, otherwise get one first and get the other afterward.
- 1 is better than 1,2. 1,2 is better than 1,2,3.
- You should give before you can take.
- ...

Some principles are so abstract that it can only confuse you and server you no usage such as:

- Cruelty.
- One.
- ...

IMO, the OP's diagram is too "abstract".

One could be applied as Zen. Perhaps not as Zen as O (nothing) but still Zen. "be one with the enemy, the fight, the punch, the throw, yourself, the world. Tao".
Cruelty can be applied as a predatory instinct that is cultivated. This way you know how a "cruel" opponent would rip your nuts off in so and so position, and gouge your eyes in another, etc., while learning how to cruelly take advantage of every opening and shortcoming of your opponent.
Not very abstract. You named a Cruel Zen Predator with realistic expectations and fighting style, with a quick and perceptive mind with superior technique.

 

[AngryHobbit]

[QUO
TE="Primal Monk, post: 1883858, member: 38720"]

A lot of that is lower intensity though. And proper form isn't necessarily proper without the necessary power. You might be able to do the form, but your joints and muscles and bones might not be strong enough to deliver a strong hit or move very quickly. Since this is about combat, the singular principle is body damage, domination or negation.[/QUOTE]
That's why I said "at the start of one's practice". One of my greatest challenges at developing good strikes was that my first instructor focused too much on classical form, the exact position of limbs, but not enough on actually hitting something. For those of us with physical impairments, this was doubly challenging - since some of us could only achieve the proper position through excruciating pain AND we had no advice as to how to adjust the form to also gain power and precision.

 

[Primal Monk]

[QUO
TE="Primal Monk, post: 1883858, member: 38720"]

A lot of that is lower intensity though. And proper form isn't necessarily proper without the necessary power. You might be able to do the form, but your joints and muscles and bones might not be strong enough to deliver a strong hit or move very quickly. Since this is about combat, the singular principle is body damage, domination or negation.

That's why I said "at the start of one's practice". One of my greatest challenges at developing good strikes was that my first instructor focused too much on classical form, the exact position of limbs, but not enough on actually hitting something. For those of us with physical impairments, this was doubly challenging - since some of us could only achieve the proper position through excruciating pain AND we had no advice as to how to adjust the form to also gain power and precision.[/QUOTE]

Have you tried straight arm work? Maximal contraction and strength in a straight arm position is a core aspect of a powerful punch. It's the difference of being hit by a sack of sand or dirt, and hit by an iron bar. Besides that is the weak muscles in your hips, low back, glutes, feet, ankles, calves, knees... etc. The kinetic chain. The transfer of power, torque, tension... can be painful. Finding pain when trying to hit harder is a good thing. Or slowness, if your body stops you before hurting yourself. If you apply a "battle to the death" mentality though, you will push the weak and injury-prone tissue into action rather than your body stopping yourself. This is a good thing, as you know your weak points now. You can take it safe and go for some strength and endurance training to shore up the weakness (straight/long limb being best usually, as your joints an dbody contract maximally in order to stay together and avoid injury aka strengthen). That's why active stretching can be very good; such as getting into a split and holding your body above the injury point with your own muscle. Similar principle, just make sure you can hold yourself up and have something to catch yourself with.
Connective tissues around your joints have to be incredible strong in order to decrease the space that the liquid in your joints is in whilst having the strength to include dynamism in the liquid's pressure changes in order to act effectively as shocks. Weak joint muscle/connective tissues can't squeeze in a controlled and appropriate manner to distribute force safely by manipulating the liquid and bones methodically and vigorously.

You might not have a problem with power now, but I hope my advice is something new and you can recognize the sense in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's "anti-authoritarian"; or, "when death has no reality" (jk-ing)

No, it's not. I chose my words carefully.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gymnastics engages many of the same muscle groups. Traps, Lats, Back. If they ever performed a squat in their life, then they would have the necessary strength to deadlift 2x bodyweight. A high level gymnast could likely perform 2.5x bodyweight.

Engaging the same muscles doesn't train them for the activity. Part (a large part) of "strength" is coordinating the muscles appropriately for the exercise. @jobo can speak to that better than I, as can some others.

 

[Primal Monk]

Welcome to the board, PM. Interesting diagram.

As far as the limitations of the human body, they are numerous. Most of them can be overcome by simple goal-setting, then creating a plan to achieve the goal, then working the plan. Some of them can't be and setting a goal to overcome them will fail because the goal is not realistic.

Bottom line - work every day toward becoming a better person mentally and physically.

I approach limitations more like an engineer or computer scientist. Tinker and find some underlying mechanisms. Understand. Reinvent. It's as much an intellectual challenge as a physical one. With that in mind, let me point out that gymnasts have some of the strongest joints. Others get tendinitis, gymnasts get iron crosses at age 80.

So beginning with the warrior instinct and body control/training of a gymnast along with relevant martial arts training (body control, difficult movements, other similar or complimentary aspects) you can build a body that can withstand higher forces than say, a power lifter. And now how about Iron Body training? They use a relaxed body while striking progressively harder substances or hitting their body with progressively harder things, whilst taking an herbal medicine usually, to strengthen connective tissues and bones. All together that's a body that can take extremely high loads and impacts.
What about old strongmen, carrying horses and bending metals? They also did plenty of 1 armed, straight armed, and isometric training. They didn't have great bodies in terms of a beach bod (usually) and didn't have plenty of muscle mass either. They weren't even fat half of the time. Of course, many had strong looking bodies, but many did not as well.
Being well put together then isn't about big muscles. It's about connective tissues. And these are built with disadvantageous levers, isometrics, and building stabilizers. Now we have a foundation. What happens if we were to build this body ourselves? What would our next step be? It would be to extend the training to be even better at it, while complimenting it. Disadvantageous lever to be introduce: a sledgehammer. Apply the same principle to the sledgehammer now; gain complete "hammer control". Be strong and powerful from every lever angle. Incorporate isometrics by holding the hammer at these disadvantageous leverage points. Besides the arms, something could be invented for the torso and legs, such as pinching your feet between something at knee level and then strengthening your legs "straight arm" style, or doing planks/bridges spread eagle and putting weight on yourself. Balancing the weight would be part of it. Figuring out hand/foot exercises with similar principles applied wouldn't be too difficult. Go from a flat palm plank to a finger tip plank as smoothly and incremental as possible, etc.

Putting it all together would result in a body that would be ready for "impossible" things, if you were thorough enough. The weakest link of the chain breaks first; that's why removing weak points is how you develop "supernatural" strength; that's why gymnastics, joint/connective tissue strengthening and training you can perform all day every day is best (no moments of weakness; fatigue strength a la material science definition).

The only thing limiting us is our body intelligence. We gave up body intelligence for other intelligence, which was the right move as it boosted our potential and abilities well past all other animals. If we now sublimate our symbol and social intelligence (am I missing something?) for body intelligence, we'll bring with us the wisdom to be incredible; beyond even animals. I call that balance.

 

[Primal Monk]

No, it's not. I chose my words carefully.

I'm fine with being condescending. Descend love. My constitution needs it anyhow. It's for my health.

Engaging the same muscles doesn't train them for the activity. Part (a large part) of "strength" is coordinating the muscles appropriately for the exercise. @jobo can speak to that better than I, as can some others.

Gymnasts are incredibly coordinated, at maximal loads/tensions. They both have maximal effort engagements of similar muscle groups. The only thing lacking are the glutes and hams, which if the athlete has any strength of, they can still use to accomplish a 2x or 2.5x deadlift. Gymnasts will perform bodyweight squats if the coach or athlete are any good and don't want chicken legs.

 

[AngryHobbit]

That's why I said "at the start of one's practice". One of my greatest challenges at developing good strikes was that my first instructor focused too much on classical form, the exact position of limbs, but not enough on actually hitting something. For those of us with physical impairments, this was doubly challenging - since some of us could only achieve the proper position through excruciating pain AND we had no advice as to how to adjust the form to also gain power and precision.

Have you tried straight arm work? Maximal contraction and strength in a straight arm position is a core aspect of a powerful punch. It's the difference of being hit by a sack of sand or dirt, and hit by an iron bar. Besides that is the weak muscles in your hips, low back, glutes, feet, ankles, calves, knees... etc. The kinetic chain. The transfer of power, torque, tension... can be painful. Finding pain when trying to hit harder is a good thing. Or slowness, if your body stops you before hurting yourself. If you apply a "battle to the death" mentality though, you will push the weak and injury-prone tissue into action rather than your body stopping yourself. This is a good thing, as you know your weak points now. You can take it safe and go for some strength and endurance training to shore up the weakness (straight/long limb being best usually, as your joints an dbody contract maximally in order to stay together and avoid injury aka strengthen). That's why active stretching can be very good; such as getting into a split and holding your body above the injury point with your own muscle. Similar principle, just make sure you can hold yourself up and have something to catch yourself with.
Connective tissues around your joints have to be incredible strong in order to decrease the space that the liquid in your joints is in whilst having the strength to include dynamism in the liquid's pressure changes in order to act effectively as shocks. Weak joint muscle/connective tissues can't squeeze in a controlled and appropriate manner to distribute force safely by manipulating the liquid and bones methodically and vigorously.

You might not have a problem with power now, but I hope my advice is something new and you can recognize the sense in it.[/QUOTE]

I work out and stretch almost every day - with a variety of exercise, including core, balancing, strength, and cardio. I don't think you fully understand the kind of physical limitations I am talking about. I'll give you an example: I have osteoma in both hips. It is a benign bone growth, not anything lethal, but something that can seriously limit how far your joint can go and in which direction. In my case, to execute a high round kick parallel to the floor in the form we were taught as classical, I have to lean back so far I can no longer see my target. Otherwise, I literally cannot get my leg up - my joint doesn't work that way. So, I don't do those particular kicks. I had to develop a modification, where I can reach both height and strength in a different way.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to absolutely state that "pain is a good thing". There is soreness from exercise - it happens. That type of pain eventually goes away as muscles develop. However, there is also pain from tearing tissue or a cracked bone. Telling someone it's a good thing, because it's all part of the practice is misleading, cruel, and downright harmful, because it can worsen the injury and impair one's ability to train for the rest of his or her life.

 

[Flying Crane]

Have you tried straight arm work? Maximal contraction and strength in a straight arm position is a core aspect of a powerful punch. It's the difference of being hit by a sack of sand or dirt, and hit by an iron bar. Besides that is the weak muscles in your hips, low back, glutes, feet, ankles, calves, knees... etc. The kinetic chain. The transfer of power, torque, tension... can be painful. Finding pain when trying to hit harder is a good thing. Or slowness, if your body stops you before hurting yourself. If you apply a "battle to the death" mentality though, you will push the weak and injury-prone tissue into action rather than your body stopping yourself. This is a good thing, as you know your weak points now. You can take it safe and go for some strength and endurance training to shore up the weakness (straight/long limb being best usually, as your joints an dbody contract maximally in order to stay together and avoid injury aka strengthen). That's why active stretching can be very good; such as getting into a split and holding your body above the injury point with your own muscle. Similar principle, just make sure you can hold yourself up and have something to catch yourself with.
Connective tissues around your joints have to be incredible strong in order to decrease the space that the liquid in your joints is in whilst having the strength to include dynamism in the liquid's pressure changes in order to act effectively as shocks. Weak joint muscle/connective tissues can't squeeze in a controlled and appropriate manner to distribute force safely by manipulating the liquid and bones methodically and vigorously.

You might not have a problem with power now, but I hope my advice is something new and you can recognize the sense in it.

I work out and stretch almost every day - with a variety of exercise, including core, balancing, strength, and cardio. I don't think you fully understand the kind of physical limitations I am talking about. I'll give you an example: I have osteoma in both hips. It is a benign bone growth, not anything lethal, but something that can seriously limit how far your joint can go and in which direction. In my case, to execute a high round kick parallel to the floor in the form we were taught as classical, I have to lean back so far I can no longer see my target. Otherwise, I literally cannot get my leg up - my joint doesn't work that way. So, I don't do those particular kicks. I had to develop a modification, where I can reach both height and strength in a different way.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to absolutely state that "pain is a good thing". There is soreness from exercise - it happens. That type of pain eventually goes away as muscles develop. However, there is also pain from tearing tissue or a cracked bone. Telling someone it's a good thing, because it's all part of the practice is misleading, cruel, and downright harmful, because it can worsen the injury and impair one's ability to train for the rest of his or her life.

Beware taking advice from strangers on the internet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm fine with being condescending. Descend love. My constitution needs it anyhow. It's for my health.



Gymnasts are incredibly coordinated, at maximal loads/tensions. They both have maximal effort engagements of similar muscle groups. The only thing lacking are the glutes and hams, which if the athlete has any strength of, they can still use to accomplish a 2x or 2.5x deadlift. Gymnasts will perform bodyweight squats if the coach or athlete are any good and don't want chicken legs.

It's not about whether the person is coordinated or not. It's about whether they've trained the muscles to the appropriate coordination for a specific activity. Unless there's a VERY similar single activity in gymnastics (similar to deadlift) their muscles haven't been trained to coordinate for that activity. That lack of trained coordination limits applied strength.