Coming soon to your home: Your Own McDojo!

[Sapper6]

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

MJ
MT Moderator

trying real hard. my apologies if it may seem otherwise.

People are getting all wound up over a toy, thats aimed at kids?

I mean, I can understand it at the LitterBox forum, afterall, it's a bit over their heads there, but here? Man, I thought folks here were a bit smarter than that.

Fraud busting, a kids fantasy product. O.K.
Since this one has now been completely busted, lets move on to the PowerRangers Action Gear shall we? That too might put some poor kid in a position to have fun, maybe generate an interest in the arts, and possibly put him in a stripmall school someday. We should stop it now.

I call for a ban on all stores carrying any martial toys. WalMart, ToysRUs and where ever the braintrust at LitterLand shops. Who's with me?

i'm there man. agreed 100%. it almost seems that we, as martial artists, take our protection of said practice a little too far. people need to lighten up a little. of all things to be critical of the martial arts world, this is certainly low on my list of priorities.

And if even one gets his *** kicked becuase of it? Does that justify it as well?

Lets paint a scenario... your "one kid" joins a dojo. My "one kid" gets beat up... everyone around him, not knowing his black belt came from the toy, all think martial arts are fake and stupid and useless.

Who wins?

this could apply to alot of things. how about we ban all books relating to the martial arts in school libraries as well. it's a toy, take it at face value. ever read the fine print description of most video games? things like "rid the world of evil, overthrow rogue governments, wipe out the alien nation of the universe, etc..." rather misleading is it not? i mean, to lead children to believe such feats lie in their hands. let's ban them as well.

is it the whole black belt idea...? perhaps we should stop worshiping the idea of "attaining black belt mastery", then maybe we wouldn't get so offended over such petty things.

If we banned everything that gets kids asses kicked...childhood would be real boring.
I see "lil ninja" kits with plastic swords, stars and masks all the time. Should those be pulled as well?
It's the parents responsibility to guide the kids, and keep them from "going too far". It's why wrestling has the "Dont try this at home" warning.

i applaud your sense of reasoning. that actually makes sense.

Bottom line, you may WANT to see it as that, but this product is NOT... it is DEFINATELY marketing itself as THE REAL THING. BOTTOM LINE.

and i thought i was a ninja turtle when i was 9 yrs old. but i grew out of it, imagine that.

I guess I'd need to view the material and see if they offer some weird kind of certificate or something. The scary thing is (since we talked about IQ and parenthood before) some adults actually think of it as cheap karate lessons - puts a whole new meaning to "WMA" - that would be ... Walmart Martial Arts.

i am almost tempted to buy the thing just to offer some sort of review, just for those reasons you've stated. but on the other hand, i can see this product for what it's worth and could hardly justify such purchase to my bride. i sincerely believe she would think i've lost my mind.

worse things have happened to the MA community. we shouldn't lose our grasp of reality in the process.

happy trails...

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I'd hate for the kids to be thinned from the herd because the parents fell for it

Yeah, that was my thought. But beyond that, offering certification is just too much.

 

[bcbernam777]

Now I am a fairly large man, can pay an extra $1 and upsize that

In the venacular of the old country Fair Dinkum mate, Now I have seen everything, what am I missing out on, I am going to realease a new DVD next year and sell it with a manual packaged with power colours, "the 10 undefeatable techniques to fighting:How to defeat 20 men with one stroke"

*excuses himself while he changes into his whoring clothes to sell his MA wares.

 

[MJS]

Yeah and Tae Bo is stupid on that level too!

I have not sat down and watched a Tae Bo tape other than seeing it advertised on an infomercial, but I wonder if Billy takes the time to explain how to properly throw those punches and kicks? I've seen cardio kickboxing classes and the people are throwing some poor punches and kicks that will likely result in injury to the person throwing them. Its also a shame that people deceive the public into actually thinking they are learning real SD. I just don't see how someone who has NEVER thrown a punch or kick before, NEVER studied a martial art in their life, can sit there, pop a tape in, and honestly expect to learn something. I'll give ya one better: How can a parent honestly expect a 5 or 6 yo to do the same thing???????? 4 and 5 yos have a hard enough time in an actual class, nevermind sitting there ifo the tv and trying to do the same thing.

Mike

 

[MJS]

is it the whole black belt idea...? perhaps we should stop worshiping the idea of "attaining black belt mastery", then maybe we wouldn't get so offended over such petty things.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with having a goal. Whats sad, is that people do not want to actually do some work to attain that goal. There is nothing wrong with "attaining BB mastery" but when that belt is attained A) by video or B) with no hard work behind it, well, to me it just does not have the same meaning compared to someone who worked their butt off in the dojo.

"Hmmm....why should I spend "X" amount of money and "X" amount of dollars, when I can spend half the time and half the money and earn my "Black Belt"

Mike

 

[dsp921]

This thread is 10 times longer than most threads that try to deal with a serious MA topic, what's that about? I guess my opinion won't fall to the popular side, but what does stores offering this toy really matter? Who cares? Does it change what you know, how you train, or your skill level. I would hope not. I couldn't care less what other people are doing, it's not worth getting worked up about.

 

[DavidCC]

"I dont believe many 5 year olds who play with that know the difference between "Real" martial arts training and "play" martial arts training. Most of them lack critical thinking skills. They are FIVE"


My 5 yr ol daugher is fully aware of when we are playing at fighting and when she is training for real. But she's special

Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot. And sonce when is the opinion of an idiot important. The kids of an idot have bigger problems than this.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot

By that rationale, any parent who buys their kid a little casio keyboard with instructional book hoping their kid will learn to play piano is an idiot, too. They are not, they just don't know better.

I'm a semi-professional musican with 20 years of experience playing. Any non-musician parent could do a lot of things that they think will help their child to learn to play which are *totally* worthless and I could sit back and just say "well, if you thought that toy would seriously help our child become a musician, you are an idiot" But, I can't do that, or I won't. My position when people ask me about learning to play is to try to give them good advice about practice and lessons and good equipment, not to think of them as idiots because they fall for marketing hype.

Stop thinking like an expereinced matial artist who knows the difference between 'real training' and 'make believe' and start thinking like a parent who's only exposure to martial arts is a Jackie Chan movie whose kid just got beat up on the playground and wants to help them out and *doesn't know what real martial arts training is about*

Parents who fall for the marketing of toys like this are not idiots, they simply don't know enough about the subject to discriminate between 'toy' and 'real', especially when the 'toy' markets itself as 'real', and probably don't know who to ask for advice or even how to ask questions.

Like as has been mentioned, how many adults take Tae-bo and cardio-kickboxing classes and such who think they are actually learning how to defend themselves? They are not idiots, they just trust their instructor because they don't have any frame of reference to know if their instructor is being straight with them or not.

How many martial artists on *this board* have mentioned before that they once took lessons from an instructor when they were beginners and, as they progressed, learned their instructor really didn't know what he was talking about? Beginner's, people with no experience or background in a subject, are not idiots; they just don't know what they don't know.

 

[Flying Crane]

People are getting all wound up over a toy, thats aimed at kids?

I mean, I can understand it at the LitterBox forum, afterall, it's a bit over their heads there, but here? Man, I thought folks here were a bit smarter than that.

Fraud busting, a kids fantasy product. O.K.
Since this one has now been completely busted, lets move on to the PowerRangers Action Gear shall we? That too might put some poor kid in a position to have fun, maybe generate an interest in the arts, and possibly put him in a stripmall school someday. We should stop it now.

I call for a ban on all stores carrying any martial toys. WalMart, ToysRUs and where ever the braintrust at LitterLand shops. Who's with me?

Next: Examining the MartialArts of ScoobyDoo and it's damaging effects on the industry.

Nope, disagree. I think it has been well established that toys are ok, fantasy is ok and even important in a child's growth. It is the "instructional" component, and the implication that a child can learn real martial arts skills thru this toy that everyone is objecting to. While it may be obvious to those of us who have trained in the arts for many years, for many people who do not have that experience, it is not necessarily so obvious. You are right, this has been thoroughly busted and perhaps it's time to move on, but I think it was a legitimate move, to bust this one.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah and Tae Bo is stupid on that level too!

agreed. gullible public.

 

[Flying Crane]

the herd needed thinning.

Been thinking this for a long time...glad someone finally said it. heh heh heh

 

[Flying Crane]

Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot

Parents who fall for the marketing of toys like this are not idiots, they simply don't know enough about the subject to discriminate between 'toy' and 'real', especially when the 'toy' markets itself as 'real', and probably don't know who to ask for advice or even how to ask questions.

I guess we all are trying to educate them, or at least that is where our efforts should be aimed.

 

[DavidCC]

Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot

By that rationale, any parent who buys their kid a little casio keyboard with instructional book hoping their kid will learn to play piano is an idiot, too. They are not, they just don't know better.

I think there is a flaw in your comparison. perhaps if your example was, "the parents who buy their kid a fisher price plastic piano..." With a little casio keyboard somebody could learn to play songs on a piano... but on a sesame steet toy piano, they could not. So your example is not erally "by that rationale".

OK so is this the scenario?:
some 7 yr old kid gets beat up by a bully (who's what, 9?). His mom buys him this toy, and he plays with it non-stop. He watches the dvd 100 times until he drives his mom crazy. He doesn't use proper foot position and so if he kicked as hard as you he would break his toe in a sparring match. He thinks he has learned to "kick ***", punch and kick like Jet Li. He stopped trying to sleep in his spider-man mask and now wants to wear his gi to bed.

3 weeks later the bully tries to beat on him again. Will he fare better or worse in the second conforntation with that bully?? My money is on "better", if only because of his increased confience. And honestly can he kick hard enough to break his toe against some kids ribs? Sure he's still scared but he thinks "karate master!" and punches the bully right in the mouth and tries to kick him in the solar plexus and hits his thigh. Most 8 yr old bullies would have had enough right there. Easier kids to bully somewhere else.

as they progressed, learned their instructor really didn't know what he was talking about?

I'm curious, if the instructor really didn't know what he was talking about, how did the students progress? what does that say about the sources of true progress? what implications does that have on the issues raised in this thread?

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think there is a flaw in your comparison. perhaps if your example was, "the parents who buy their kid a fisher price plastic piano..." With a little casio keyboard somebody could learn to play songs on a piano... but on a sesame steet toy piano, they could not. So your example is not erally "by that rationale".

I submit that you are an idiot : )

If you think you can learn to play piano with a little casio keyboard and an insruction book, then you are the same idiot as a parent who thinks that their kid can be a karate expert using this toy.

Casio keyboards have shortened ranges, by more importantly they keys are not the right size and they weighting is not proper. You might be able to learn to peck out a few songs but that's a far range from being able to play a piano. In terms of actually playing piano with any sort of competance, a casio keyboard and a sesame street toy are almost at the same level (partially because I've had little ty pianos and, yes, you can pick out and learn tunes on them)

Per example, I play synth in my band. I play a Korg X-3, which by any measure is a pretty good synth, a professional level instrument, with full size keys, but I cannot play piano. When I sit at a piano and try to play, the weighting of the keys throws me off and the notes have different resonance and sustain that I'm unable to control and I don't know how to properly use the damper pedals. I can play keyboard, but I can't play piano, but I'm an experienced enough musician to know the difference

Being able to learn to pick out a few songs is to being a piano player as learning a foot kicks and punches is to being a 'karate expert', as the toy claims.


No I don't think you are an idiot really, but I see your statements about sesame street toy versus the little casio keyboard (which, depending on the model is either just a toy or just barely above it) and learning to play some songs to actually learning to play piano, I'l admit that it reminds me a lot of experienced martial artists talking about non-martial artists in the sense that I don't think you have the experience to judge what tools are needed to learn to play music, or what those tools can, and cannot do, but...I don't think you are an idiot either. But that proves my point; parents who don't know MA don't have the background to judge the difference between a 'toy' and 'reality'. If you think a parent that would fall for this is an 'idiot' then...well..

If the goal is 'to play a few songs and to have fun making music and learning music', then the casio keyboard is fine. If the goal is to actually be a piano expert then...it's a waste of time and may as well start of right. If the goal is to get some exercise and have a little fantasy fun, then the toy is fine, if the goal is to become a 'karate master' and learn kicks, blocks, etc.. (like the marketing claims) and well, actually to defend yourself, then it's a pretty short-lived waste of time

Sure he's still scared but he thinks "karate master!" and punches the bully right in the mouth and tries to kick him in the solar plexus and hits his thigh.

Now, why am I having flashbacks to conversations about the use of sport sparring techniques in street fights


I'm curious, if the instructor really didn't know what he was talking about, how did the students progress?

There is progression in time and progression in knowledge as well as progression in skill. Most MA that I've seen here who claim to have had this type of background were curious enough and driven enough to seek outsode knowledge and learning as well and as a result they were able to relfect that back in their instructor and realize their instructor was, intentionally or not, not teaching what he claimed to be

what implications does that have on the issues raised in this thread?

Simply that people who fall for the claims in marketing of subjects that they have no background in are not idiots, and it's contigent upong those who do know better to try to help guide those who don't

 

[Cryozombie]

Freep you kind of beat me to it, but the point I was going to make to you was that your analagy was off...

A kid with a casio keyboard and an instructional manual could potentially learn to play Keyboard, but a Keyboard is not a piano. Saying Keyboard = Piano would be like saying Karate = Boxing

I have a family member who was self taught on a Casio with lightup keys who plays in a band now, and does shows at bars and clubs.

 

[FearlessFreep]

A kid with a casio keyboard and an instructional manual could potentially learn to play Keyboard, but a Keyboard is not a piano. Saying Keyboard = Piano would be like saying Karate = Boxing

Agreed. And a Casio keyboard does not have marketing material that purports to teach you to play piano like a "Piano Master" It's the promise of teaching expertise, aimed at thise without knowledge or experience to know better, in a toy that is troubling

 

[first123class]

I don't know if I am the first one to say this, but it looks like he is landing his side kick with the toes.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know if I am the first one to say this, but it looks like he is landing his side kick with the toes.

yeah, i'd say ball of the foot. i thought noticing this was just a given, but I guess it's a firsthand account of what you can learn thru this approach...

 

[FearlessFreep]

It was the ball of foot strike with a sidekick and the bad angle of the pivot that I first noticed..

 

[DavidCC]

But don't you think the kid's gain in confidence and his practice punching and kicking (as mis-informed as it might be) will improve his ability to sand up to another kid trying to bully him?