Zen and the Martial Arts

Vulcan

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Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?


How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?


Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen? Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo? After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?


This is an open discussion. All are welcome.
 
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Oops, I just realized that this was meant for the "Philosophy & Spirituality" Sub forum.


This site is huge, sorry. It will take a while for me to get oriented.


Mods, please move to the correct forum. Thanks.
 

Chris Parker

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Hey James,

In the interest of a new start, I'll join in on this.

Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?

My early karate days (Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do) involved a form, as does a koryu system I train in (as an unofficial study group), in both the instruction is limited. Essentially, there is a series of instructions (Seiza.... mokuso.... yame) and I was guided (in my karate days) to just sit there and meditate (?).

It was only many years later that I started to come to an understanding of exactly what I was really meant to be doing at that time; focusing internally, taking control of my body and mind, etc, and I gained that in no small part to the way we practice it in my schools today. For us, zazen starts each and every class, and is used to clear out the day we've had, prepare us for the class ahead, move energies (through guided visualisations) around, and more. These meditations are led by the instructor, and there are quite a few we use depending on the energy of the class in the beginning of the night.

We also use a deeper form of it for other personal development uses, again guided by the instructor, and geared towards specific goals,typically pertaining to the class at hand, although also geared towards improving the internal side of things (mental, emotional, spiritual, based on beliefs, values, behaviours, and methods of understanding and forming designed appraoches to life).

In the koryu system I use my methods from my regular classes to improve my koryu training. But that is done internally by myself for myself.

How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?

Well, it hasn't really. My sitting hasn't helped my movement at all. My movement, on the other hand, has helped my movement quite a bit. My movement from a sitting position has helped my movement from a sitting position exponentially, for example. But sitting hasn't helped. At least, not in my movement. What it has helped in, though, is in my ability to push discomfort out of my mind (after being in seiza for a while), it has increased my awareness of the edges of my physical body (I become more aware of how far my arms are from my sides, for instance), and in other ways.

Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen?

While I believe that that can be one of the benefits, it hasn't been related to that for me at all. For me it is more about focusing on the instant, becoming aware of what's really going on around me, and more. I don't believe that anger has any place in martial arts, so I don't involve it in the class, and that means that zazen has to be for other factors for me.

Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo?

As I said, I use it to focus on the instant, the moment I am in, and as that is the essence of martial arts methods, then a help, absolutely! But it needs to be taught with the correct context. Just sitting there with your eyes closed does nothing, really, but a true meditation can have far-reaching benefits beyond even those mentioned here. In martial arts and more.

After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?

Well, who says martial arts are about not doing harm? But if you want the philosophical answer, we simply need to look to Satsujinken and Katsujinken (the sword that takes life/kills, and the sword that gives life). The "bad" one is Satsujinken, as it is destructive, and will ultimately lead to the demise of it's wielder, whereas the Katsujinken is positive, being used for the betterment of people in general. It is used to destroy negativity and evil, and in doing so may "kill" some people, but the greater number will be saved by doing so. This concept was most famously associated with the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Yagyu Munetoshi, although the Katori Shinto Ryu also begins it's teachings with a similar concept "Heiho wa heiho nari (the ways of war [heiho] are the ways of peace [heiho - different kanji])", although they also teach that a fully trained student of their system should be able to cut anyone down with only a single stroke of their sword...

As to how you reconcile that within yourself, well that is up to the person. Jack Hoban (Bujinkan 15th Dan) has a great book on philosophy (Ninpo: Living and Thinking as a Warrior) in which he expresses his approach, taken from his training, experiences, and one of his mentors, Robert L. Humphrey. Part of his creed is "Wherever I go, people are a little bit safer because I am there". This, to me, succinctly expresses why I train. Not so much for my protection, but for those around me. I train so that if called upon, I can do what I need to do without hesitation. This has been called on more than a few times, not always in the sense of violent confrontations I might add.

My approach to martial arts and self defence training is not about doing no harm. I really have no problem "doing harm", provided of course the situation warrants it, or more accurately, demands it. My approach is that I and my friends/girlfriends/family/loved ones/whoever I happen to be out with have the right to have an uninterrupted night. And I train so that should those interruptions occur, I can minimise their impact on my life, and the lives of those around me. That's how I see it, anyway.

This is an open discussion. All are welcome.
 

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Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?

IMHO, I dont think meditation is taught correctly in some schools. This isn't to say that there aren't some that do teach it correctly, but the ones that I've seen, no, its not done correctly.


How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?

Ummm....no. Actually, I'm not sure how sitting is going to help with movement.


Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen?

As Chris said, some may use it, however, I do not.


Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo?

I would say a help. Meditation, IMO, is supposed to be relaxing, and you should be relaxed in a SD situation, so yeah, its a help.

After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?

Well, there are more to the arts than killing, IMO, especially considering the fact that each and every situation should be assessed, with your response in accordance to whats happening. In a nutshell, Chris pretty much summed my exact thoughts on how I view SD.


This is an open discussion. All are welcome.[/quote]
 
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Vulcan

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"Do no harm" is a Buddhist prerequisite, not a Budo prerequisite, hence the question.
 

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One of those wonderful little paradoxs for many in history to deal with, though. Musashi, in the Gorin no Sho, wrote that you must be totally concerned with killing the other person in a fight (meaning that you cannot be concerned with your own life, but that's almost beside the point I'm making here), and at the same time he was highly influenced by Bhuddist scripture at the end of his life (when he is said to have written the Gorin no Sho), and it is said that you need to have a deep understanding of Bhuddist scriptures to truly understand his words. Many of the Ryu's headmasters, particularly in the last few generations, have been Bhuddist priests.

When it comes to the concept of re-incarnation, there was quite an ingenious way to explain the samurai I came across. Essentially, the samurai were the ruling class (hence, high up on the scale of reincarnation really), yet they went against Bhuddist teachings by killing, so how were they karmically punished? The way it was explained was that they were doomed to be reborn as samurai, and go through the same existance of pain, death, and blood. This may have been one reason so many turned to Bhuddist priesthood later in life (a relatively common occurance). I just find that interesting...
 

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Ruling classes have ever found a way to explain their doings, there's not many who can afford to disagree with them! I imagine the thought of having to come back as a Samurai wasn't exactly much of a threat as they would have seen themselves as 'top dogs' and who could imagine that being bad, human nature being what it is. Becoming 'religious' in old age is a fairly common thread running across many religions and thoughts, one has more time when older to consider philosophy and if you have survived combat you know old age will get you so death looms larger still. If, too, you have been strong, active and combative all your life, becoming old is unpleasant so again religious beliefs can be a comfort.
 
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Musashi, in the Gorin no Sho, wrote that you must be totally concerned with killing the other person in a fight (meaning that you cannot be concerned with your own life, but that's almost beside the point I'm making here), and at the same time he was highly influenced by Bhuddist scripture at the end of his life (when he is said to have written the Gorin no Sho), and it is said that you need to have a deep understanding of Bhuddist scriptures to truly understand his words. Many of the Ryu's headmasters, particularly in the last few generations, have been Bhuddist priests.


I wonder if Takuan disowned him, or if he actually never knew him at all.

Of all of the claims about Musashi, the ones concerning his Zen practice are the most tenuous. And that is saying a lot when you consider his other legends.

I'm actually disappointed Takuan mentioned Yagyu and not Musashi. I would like to believe that he took Takuan as his teacher and became enlightened.

Oh well...
 

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Well, the main source for Takuan being a teacher of Musashi that I have found is again Yoshikawa Eiji's book (and the Manga series based on it). There are a large number of references to Musashi studying Buddhism throughout his works (most particularly the later works, Gorin no Sho and Dokkodo), so saying that mention of his Zen practice being the most tenuous I feel is out of place, especially considering some of the other stories attributed to him.

I wouldn't be too disappointed that there are no records of Takuan Soto mentioning Musashi, whereas he and Yagyu Munenori had a fair bit of correspondance (some of which is kept in the book The Unfettered Mind), showing in Yagyu's works such as The Life-Giving Sword. Yagyu was, after all, the Teacher to the Shogun, and Musashi, despite what many think, was rather unknown as a swordsman in Japan until Yoshikawa's book helped to popularise that aspect of his life again. Until then he was better known as an artist.

One other thing, though. You mention that you have put the "do no harm" aspect in there as it is a precept of Buddhism, rather than martial arts, but I would point out that "zazen" simply means seated meditation, and while definately used in Buddhism, its occurance does not necessarily mean that Buddhism is present. So few people here will make the connection, unless practicing Buddhists themselves. And although Buddhist thought has influenced a great number of Japanese martial arts, Japan is a multi-theistic nation, and most Japanese see no issue being Buddhist and Shintoist, for example. And Shinto is as big an influence in the arts as well (Katori and Kashima shrines being major centres for Classical Japanese systems, giving rise to Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, and many more that trace themselves back to one or another of these arts), as even Musashi was said to have travelled to the Katori Jingu in his journeys.
 
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Sorry I have been so absent...but I have been very busy with my daily meditation, studies, Zazenkai (zazen from 6:30am-9:00 pm with my teachers once a month for three days), and iaido. I was nursing a dislocated shoulder from jiu-jitsu when I joined up, so I had much more time back then.

See the latest issue of Black Belt magazine for an excellent article on the benefits of meditation in the martial arts. It contains a lot of support for my assertions that sitting can greatly benefit your movements, kata, and martial mind. Or should I say, no-mind.


Have a great week.


-James
 

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Hi James,

Can you provide a link to the article? I'm not about to comment on something I can't read for myself first, you understand, and we tend to get the magazine a few weeks after the US, whereas others may not get it at all.

I will, however, reiterate that meditation, sitting or otherwise, can certainly have many benefits, however I completely fail to see how sitting with your eyes closed helps movement. Visualisations of perfromance can help performance, absolutely, however that is rarely the way zazen is performed, and to go even better than that, you need to actually do it.
 

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Anyone here practice zazen meditation and the martial arts?


How has your sitting help with your movement, and vice versa?


Have you learned to manage your anger and stress through zazen? Do you think that meditation can be a help, or a hindrance to budo? After all, how can one do no harm and practice killing at the same time?


This is an open discussion. All are welcome.

Just as a note, there is much more to Zen and Zen in the Martial Arts than zazen. To be honest to practice Zen in the martial arts you really do not need to sit in zazen at all.

It is also a book by the way, and a rather good one - Zen in the Martial Arts


Also there is a lot more to Buddhism if that is what you are focusing on here with this post and Zazen. There are also various sects of Buddhism (Mahayana, Hinayana , Tantrayana, Theravada) that look at things slightly differently there are even different sects within the sects of Buddhism Tibetan, Chan, Zen and sub sects of those like Soto and Rinzai Zen

Here is more to consider

The Three Jewels
the Buddha
the Dharma - the way the Buddha taught to live your life
the Sangha - A group of monks and other people who meet together

The Four Noble Truths
1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

Eightfold Path
1. Right View Wisdom
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentratio

These are the Five concepts.
1.I will not hurt a person or animal that is alive.
2.I will not take something if it was not given to me.
3.I will not have sex in a way that is harmful.
4.I will not lie or say things that hurt people.
5.I will not take intoxicants, like alcohol or drugs.
In some types of Buddhism, when a person wants to be a monk, he will follow other precepts also

The Precepts
I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...
1....harming living beings.
2....taking things not freely given.
3....sexual misconduct.
4....false speech.
5....intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness.
6....taking untimely meals.
7....dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime.
8....use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment.
9....use of high seats.
10....accepting gold or silver.


Basically, don't over think this.
 
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Basically, don't over think this.


Good post. There is much more than zazen, but I did not want to overwhelm the conversation with a dissertation. Best to start with sitting, and end with sitting. Personally, I don't over think it, I practice daily. I am a Soto Zen Buddhist and a Martial Artist.


Chris, I will try to get you that link. You are correct, there is no visualization. In fact, to empty the mind is to give it it greatest benefit (I will go over some Takuan later). But one correction...we don't meditate with our eyes closed.


Peace.


-James
 
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Vulcan

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Soto Zen, cool... more sitting, less koan :)

I am not a buddhist ,although I do practice Zazen, however my mother-in-law is a Chan Buddhist.



I do not see it as a matter of "more or less". As a former student of Rinzai, we meditated in Rinzai, as a current student of Soto, we take the public record (koan). My sensei would say "not two".


Back to Chris...

Chris,

I invite you to explore this matter further if you are interested. If you are not interested, then I welcome you to drop it. It would be impossible to talk about something that only one of us have experienced. It would be like one of us having a full bladder and expecting the other one to empty it for them. It simply can't be done. I was introduced to Zen about 25 years ago and only now am I developing my taste for it to the point where I can appreciate the subtlety of it's flavour.

May you be well.

-James
 

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Hi James.

Back to Chris...

Chris,

I invite you to explore this matter further if you are interested. If you are not interested, then I welcome you to drop it. It would be impossible to talk about something that only one of us have experienced. It would be like one of us having a full bladder and expecting the other one to empty it for them. It simply can't be done. I was introduced to Zen about 25 years ago and only now am I developing my taste for it to the point where I can appreciate the subtlety of it's flavour.

May you be well.

-James

Frankly, I'm not sure where this has come from. You start this thread with the statement "All are welcome to participate", refer only to zazen, which is simply seated ("za") meditation ("zen"), without specifically refering to any particular Buddhist sect or faction, just asking how seated meditations helped anyone with their movement, if at all. And, frankly, I have been the most vocal in this thread, with Xue Sheng adding some great info as well.

My suggestion to yourself is to either add in all the context you wish to be a factor of the discussion, in which case you can dictate it's direction (but if you are now only asking that those interested or involved in Soto Buddhism to contribute, you are probably going to have a very lonely thread....), as this really seems to come out of nowhere. Either you want a discussion or you don't.
 

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I do not see it as a matter of "more or less". As a former student of Rinzai, we meditated in Rinzai, as a current student of Soto, we take the public record (koan). My sensei would say "not two".

alrighty then

It was kind of a toungue and cheek reference based on what Soto is as compared to Rinzai historically...hence the :) that was at the end.


Chris,

I invite you to explore this matter further if you are interested. If you are not interested, then I welcome you to drop it. It would be impossible to talk about something that only one of us have experienced. It would be like one of us having a full bladder and expecting the other one to empty it for them. It simply can't be done. I was introduced to Zen about 25 years ago and only now am I developing my taste for it to the point where I can appreciate the subtlety of it's flavour.

May you be well.

-James

Nice reference to an old Zen story, but that is in reference to someone asking a Zen master "What is Zen" and I do not think that is what Chris asked you, you were discussing zazen and that does not necessarily mean you have any link to Zen Buddhism at all. If you read anything by Jon Kabat-Zinn he is basically doing Zazen that is for the most part Buddhism free.

 
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I completely fail to see how sitting with your eyes closed helps movement.


This does not imply that you want to learn, but that you have your mind made up. That is not "discussing" but more like "cutting". I could be wrong, so I led with "I invite you to explore this matter further". If you do not want to, and simply have your mind made up that it doesn't work then I invited you to "drop it", i.e. I am not going to waste time trying to convince you, as this is not my goal to win you over. :)


You already meditate before class and explore deeper meditation practice in your Ninpo. So we are having a "violent agreement" I think it's called?

It is very hard to have these kind of esoteric discussions online, and frankly I have never tried it before, especially concerning the fighting arts which many in the Buddhist community do not understand.

I will chalk it up to poor communication on my part, as I suppose I have not been able to properly direct the thread to the liking of the two of you, and for that I am sorry.


-James
 

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This does not imply that you want to learn, but that you have your mind made up. That is not "discussing" but more like "cutting". I could be wrong, so I led with "I invite you to explore this matter further". If you do not want to, and simply have your mind made up that it doesn't work then I invited you to "drop it", i.e. I am not going to waste time trying to convince you, as this is not my goal to win you over. :)


You already meditate before class and explore deeper meditation practice in your Ninpo. So we are having a "violent agreement" I think it's called?

It is very hard to have these kind of esoteric discussions online, and frankly I have never tried it before, especially concerning the fighting arts which many in the Buddhist community do not understand.

I will chalk it up to poor communication on my part, as I suppose I have not been able to properly direct the thread to the liking of the two of you, and for that I am sorry.


-James

Not really, the entire post was asking you if you could supply a link to the article you say backs up your concept of sitting helping movement. I then continued to say that I can see no relation there, so if your article can give some support, I'd be very interested to read it. That's all.
 

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