hoshin160022 1
Senior Master
I am glad you found your path. I am sending a PM.
Zen and the Martial Arts
- Thread starter Vulcan
- Start date
I am glad you found your path. I am sending a PM.
- Moderator
- #42
We have a commonality, my friend, I grew up just a couple miles from that Temple.
Did you ever train there? It's an amazing martial art, but mostly unknown. You have to take the zen buddhism with it, which was actually a plus for me. I never did anything with sword, but training his empty-hand art taught me a lot about how to use gravity and momentum among other things. I haven't visited them in years - I'm on the northshore of mass now - and a solo practitioner, but still do the 20 forms I learned there - there's nothing else quite like them. Thanks for reaching out.
- Moderator
- #44
I was a little kid, hadn't trained yet, I don't know if it was even there at that time. But I passed by it a year ago, on one of those "one last look" kind of things about where you've lived. When you mentioned it, I thought "Hey, I know where that is!"
Yes.
Not at all.
Not really. When doing Zazen, you just sit, maybe count a few breaths or throw in a wattō, rather than ruminations on the emotions.
It being a a chef a hindrance/help to gardening? I think a lot of us are attracted to Zen because we think it’ll turbocharge our Budo practise but Zen was kind of levered into Budo practise at the end of the 19th century when the gendai Budo were legitimized by those trying to give these arts some relevance in a emerging modern Japan. The Sengoku jidai samurai had little to do with longwinded Zen practise, instead preferring the immediacy of Mikkyo.
I’ve taken this truly excellent, measured review of this book to explain what’s going on….
This book is essentially a consolidation of several other books to support the thesis of the author and throughout it, you will see repeated references and quotes from Trevor Legget's 'Zen and the Ways', Don Daeger's works , Sogen Omori's 'An introduction to Zen Training' and D.T. Suzuki's 'Zen and Japanese Culture'. Legget's work is so often quoted that I have ordered the original source so that I can make up my own opinion on what he was trying to get across.
This book gives an excellent explanation of what Buddhism and Zen are, from historical, religious and social perspectives before introducing the author's ideas on the influence of Zen on the martial ways. He alludes to the link between Zen and the martial ways being exaggerated in the literature he cites from almost the start but nevertheless continues with the same over-emphasis. It's only in the epilogue of the book does he clearly states that Zen has, at best, had only a slight influence on the martial ways and this influence has been from 'folk Zen' (Bompu Zen) rather than 'true' Zen. It's only in the epilogue that he states that two frequently and arguably most influentially cited authors were not qualified to make the link between Zen and the martial arts and Japanese culture (D.T. Suzuki knew little about the martial arts and Herrigel mistook the Wang Yang-ming Confucianism of his Kyudo master for Zen!). So after reading, enjoying and understanding the whole book, I felt the wind was somewhat taken out of my sails by the epilogue when it became clear that Zen has very little part in the martial ways. I think the epilogue should have been the prologue but then, of course, who would then have continue to read the rest of the book? The author makes regular references and examples of Zen in his own art, Goju Ryu Karate, but when you consider that even Okinawan Karate as it is now, is at most only about a century old, it does seem like he was 'levering it into the book' to merely mention his own art and perhaps ingratiate himself with his Sensei! He further weakens the ' Zenishness' of Goju Ryu Karate with his excellent chapter on the 'Contemporay World of Budo' where he talks about how sport is eroding what little Zen there is in the martial arts and the arts themselves with particular reference to Karate, Judo and even calligraphy!
In summary, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this book and would recommend it, but mainly as an intellectual exercise and a clear introduction to Buddhism and Zen. This, together with the Dave Lowry's works, where he shows Shingon Buddhism's influence on the martial ways gives a fuller account of the whole story.
This book is essentially a consolidation of several other books to support the thesis of the author and throughout it, you will see repeated references and quotes from Trevor Legget's 'Zen and the Ways', Don Daeger's works , Sogen Omori's 'An introduction to Zen Training' and D.T. Suzuki's 'Zen and Japanese Culture'. Legget's work is so often quoted that I have ordered the original source so that I can make up my own opinion on what he was trying to get across.
This book gives an excellent explanation of what Buddhism and Zen are, from historical, religious and social perspectives before introducing the author's ideas on the influence of Zen on the martial ways. He alludes to the link between Zen and the martial ways being exaggerated in the literature he cites from almost the start but nevertheless continues with the same over-emphasis. It's only in the epilogue of the book does he clearly states that Zen has, at best, had only a slight influence on the martial ways and this influence has been from 'folk Zen' (Bompu Zen) rather than 'true' Zen. It's only in the epilogue that he states that two frequently and arguably most influentially cited authors were not qualified to make the link between Zen and the martial arts and Japanese culture (D.T. Suzuki knew little about the martial arts and Herrigel mistook the Wang Yang-ming Confucianism of his Kyudo master for Zen!). So after reading, enjoying and understanding the whole book, I felt the wind was somewhat taken out of my sails by the epilogue when it became clear that Zen has very little part in the martial ways. I think the epilogue should have been the prologue but then, of course, who would then have continue to read the rest of the book? The author makes regular references and examples of Zen in his own art, Goju Ryu Karate, but when you consider that even Okinawan Karate as it is now, is at most only about a century old, it does seem like he was 'levering it into the book' to merely mention his own art and perhaps ingratiate himself with his Sensei! He further weakens the ' Zenishness' of Goju Ryu Karate with his excellent chapter on the 'Contemporay World of Budo' where he talks about how sport is eroding what little Zen there is in the martial arts and the arts themselves with particular reference to Karate, Judo and even calligraphy!
In summary, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this book and would recommend it, but mainly as an intellectual exercise and a clear introduction to Buddhism and Zen. This, together with the Dave Lowry's works, where he shows Shingon Buddhism's influence on the martial ways gives a fuller account of the whole story.
Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
It’s the other way around, Zen evolved out of martial stuff, Bodhidharma was of warrior caste.
The ‘Bodhidharama/martial arts’ link is wide considered a myth.
Bodhidharma is traditionally regarded as the legendary founder of Shaolin Kung Fu, but historical evidence suggests he was primarily a 5th/6th-century Chan Buddhist teacher, not a martial artist. The connection between him and combat techniques is likely a later myth, originating from 17th-century texts rather than his lifetime.
(Wikipedia)
Bodhidharma is traditionally regarded as the legendary founder of Shaolin Kung Fu, but historical evidence suggests he was primarily a 5th/6th-century Chan Buddhist teacher, not a martial artist. The connection between him and combat techniques is likely a later myth, originating from 17th-century texts rather than his lifetime.
(Wikipedia)
Haruhiko
Brown Belt
Zazen, kinhin, samu. When I can.
It's very different to other sects of meditation, like shingon meditation. I practice that too.
Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
Even Siddhartha Gautama was of warrior caste - Kshatriya
Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
As Daruma turned teacher/priest you turned warrior(Iaido) . Universe always keep up balance
Oh he was a bad a*s kung fu wizard. It’s well documented.
I wave a sword around, pretending to be a swordsman to make myself feel good.
Same Trick59 10
Master of Arts
Yes cutting away extreme emotion, reach the feel good balance , cut as the sword on flames.
Appledog50 3
Purple Belt
I spent a year in a Korean Zen temple. I was thinking about becoming a monk. I had many little kenshos (experiences). They definitely led to something interesting conceptually that allowed me to get better at kungfu.
I would describe it as like going to university. Lots of people think they can fix their bathroom sink or the pipes in their basement. And maybe they picked something up about that. but they are not plumbers and never will be. A lot of martial artists are like this too.
So, I recommend learning Zen or Buddhism, for a decent chunk of time, just to learn more about the culture and stuff. But going too deep on it is not required and actually may be counter-productive. Always remember this. Why is a monk a monk? (Why did the monk join the temple?) Because he's not enlightened.
I would describe it as like going to university. Lots of people think they can fix their bathroom sink or the pipes in their basement. And maybe they picked something up about that. but they are not plumbers and never will be. A lot of martial artists are like this too.
So, I recommend learning Zen or Buddhism, for a decent chunk of time, just to learn more about the culture and stuff. But going too deep on it is not required and actually may be counter-productive. Always remember this. Why is a monk a monk? (Why did the monk join the temple?) Because he's not enlightened.
