Youth Black Belts

[Daniel Sullivan]

No they do not automatically roll into a Dan rank, the proper paperwork needs to be filled out and then they re-issue the Dan rank.

That is what I had thought. Thanks for the confirmation!

One thing with the KKWschools alot fo not require another test before doing the paperwork and submitting it. All my students and parents understand that when the time comes they need to take my adult BB test or find another school.

A good policy in my opinion.

I would also consider it equally valid if the instructor, knowing the student were to simply say, based on where he or she knows the student to be, 'I'm filling this out because you are ready' or 'I will not fill this out at this time. You need more work.'

Daniel

 

[cmassman]

I don't really care one way or another, but Gorilla does have a track record of 'egging' things on occasionally. He likes to bait Twin Fist.

That’s an interesting perspective; I never viewed it as egging people on. I always assumed that it was just individuals expressing their opinions on different topics. Granted there are individuals who strongly express their opinions. I don’t take it to personally. .

 

[dancingalone]

That’s an interesting perspective; I never viewed it as egging people on. I always assumed that it was just individuals expressing their opinions on different topics. Granted there are individuals who strongly express their opinions. I don’t take it to personally. .

When one openly complains about the boards being boring and slow and needing some controversy, I think it's evidence that there's some desire for trolling and inciting. To use the Twin Fist example, it's not like we don't know what TF thinks about child black belts or hogus. There's really not a reason to poke him like a bear in a cage to get his reaction.

And if you don't know what I am talking about, that's fine. Like I said I don't really care - Gorilla is generally a good poster - but I do think he enjoys heated threads in the TKD forum and he's not above manufacturing or seeking them out.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When one openly complains about the boards being boring and slow and needing some controversy, I think it's evidence that there's some desire for trolling and inciting. To use the Twin Fist example, it's not like we don't know what TF thinks about child black belts or hogus. There's really not a reason to poke him like a bear in a cage to get his reaction.

And if you don't know what I am talking about, that's fine. Like I said I don't really care - Gorilla is generally a good poster - but I do think he enjoys heated threads in the TKD forum and he's not above manufacturing or seeking them out.

Which is exactly my reason for the friendly heads up.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

ADMIN NOTE:

Folks,

Before this thread gets too out of hand, let me say a few things:

1) The forum rules are in place for everyone, and are not up for debate. They should be pretty clear. If someone is intentionally starting threads for the purpose of causing trouble, the thread and the person in question will be dealt with. I understand that some heat and controversy makes for a good debate, however, if the disruption out weighs that, then no, its not a good thing. In other words, if people start taking personal shots at each other, that takes away from the debate.

2) A few posts have already been reported and are being reviewed.

3) The thread is being watched. Please return to the original topic at hand. Further disruption will result in the thread being closed.

4) Posting on a forum does require a thick skin. If someone or their posts, bother you that much, use the ignore feature.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin.

 

[terryl965]

I believe we just all need to sit down and have a few drinks, it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...

right Gorilla?

 

[Tez3]

I believe we just all need to sit down and have a few drinks, it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...

right Gorilla?

I wish I could! Am on earlies tomorrow, a five o'clock crawl out of a bed which wants me to stay in it. At least in summer it's light, horrible in winter when it stays dark until about seven in the morning. Oh well off to bed so good night and have fun, people!

 

[mango.man]

I believe we just all need to sit down and have a few drinks, it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...

right Gorilla?

Welcome to Facebook Terry. Looking forward to seeing what you throw on there.

 

[Gorilla]

I believe we just all need to sit down and have a few drinks, it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...

right Gorilla?

You are right Terry...I really am glad that I posted on Martial Talk...I have made some new friends who I respect I am really glad that I have met. Both you and ATC are great people and I look forward to a long friendship. I really enjoyed the drinks we had in Ft Lauderdale. I have Known Mango Man for years and look forward to a continued friendship on our TKD Journey.

 

[Gorilla]

I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.

The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.

Just my opinion.

That was my intention...You stated it right....

 

[Gorilla]

Lots of discussion around youth BB, TIG and youthful GM's. This was a hot topic thread fro a few years back. It may have the most views ever on the TKD forum. Enjoy it is good reading. Lots of hot debate.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This why I posted this thread. I hear allot on BBS that under 10 year old Black Belts are not deserving. I think the the real answer is some are and some are not but the potential for younger BB to earn that rank is possible no matter what you call them(Poom or Dan).

It is not a question of deserving. If a ten year old meets the criteria set forth by his or her school, then he or she is deserving by the standards of that particular school. A poom rank student technically should wear a poom belt and a poom dobok: a half black/half red belt and a dobok with half red/half black colar. Many schools choose to put them in black belts. That is a school decision.

I draw a distinction between the rank and the belt color. If you are a poom rank, you are not a yudanja. If you are a dan rank holder, then you are. What color belt and dobok the school permits is between you and that school.

The reason some kids train with adults is because the youth level training is not enough.

Some kids mix well in an adult class, some do not. It also depends on the nature of the class.

The criteria that i posted is to high. That why I posted it!!! To get the discussion going

Actually it is not too high. Personally, that is what I feel the blackbelt criteria should be. But different teachers and schools have different philosophies from my own.

I do not penalize the child for earning a black belt in a school. I would never tell a kid that he or she is not deserving just because they are a kid.

I do think that the instructor is doing them a disservice and look down on the practice. But that is a different story.

What is the correct criteria for a (Poom Belt or Black Belt) if you are going to give them to 10 year olds and not bring down the standards for Black Belts of TKD in general

Poom requirements are essentially the same as adult requirements, but the kids do not get out and spar against an adult going full boar; they spar against other kids and break thinner boards.

The poom signifies that the child has learned the kyu grade material but does not have the maturity, both physical and/or mental, to take on a dan rank. No shame in that; they are kids and are not done maturing.

Daniel

This is what I posted on 30-July 2009. My opinion is still essentially the same. It doesn't bother as much now as it did back then.

As I said in a more recent thread, it used to bother me a lot. But then I got off of my high horse and stopped taking myself so seriously.

 

[Gorilla]

I still think it is a great thread. Diversity of thought and opinion is a great thing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regardless of the many thoughts in the negative, black belts on children are here to stay. One of the major factors in this is that the black belt has become a diploma of sorts. You go through the school, you learn the syllabus, and when you're done, usually in about two years, you get your diploma. Probably more than 90% leave at this point.

Some students stay on for another year and take the advanced material and stick around through second dan, receiving another diploma. No idea how many leave at this point.

Some students stay on for another two years and take further advanced material, receiving a third diploma. Again, no idea how many leave at this point, but I'd bet that more leave after third than leave after second.

Regardless of how many go on for another three years to become fourth dan, the fact is that the pool of students left to move up to second is less than ten percent of the students who 'graduated.'

The fact is that of the students who graduate with their black belt, they are but a percentage of those who sign up for martial arts. I'd be willing to bet that less than 60% of those who sign up for a martial arts class stick around and make it through the entire syllabus.

So 90% of the remaining 60% quit after black belt. Which means that probably 99% of those in your school will be gone after black belt.

Kind of puts into perspective all those belt testing fees, extra clubs and programs, and putting black belts on kids. If you only put them on the adult students, you get even less income and with a 99% drop out rate, every penny counts, and enrollment is vital in order to keep the flow of students coming in high enough for the school remain viable.

 

[Gorilla]

In 2005 my son was 8 and fighting at the black belt division at nationals. The kids in this division were very talented. Each year we would see the kids and the parents at nationals. Each year the pool dwindled. This year the last kid quit the only one left is Charlie. Still training six days a week some times seven. Will be leaving for the dojang in an hour. My kids are very lucky to have found their passion at a very young age. In April it will be 10 years in TKD almost 2 years in Shotokan and black belt in both and the privilege of training with some of the best Martial Artists in the world. We are very lucky!

 

[Haakon]

Regardless of the many thoughts in the negative, black belts on children are here to stay. One of the major factors in this is that the black belt has become a diploma of sorts. You go through the school, you learn the syllabus, and when you're done, usually in about two years, you get your diploma. Probably more than 90% leave at this point.

Some students stay on for another year and take the advanced material and stick around through second dan, receiving another diploma. No idea how many leave at this point.

Some students stay on for another two years and take further advanced material, receiving a third diploma. Again, no idea how many leave at this point, but I'd bet that more leave after third than leave after second.

Regardless of how many go on for another three years to become fourth dan, the fact is that the pool of students left to move up to second is less than ten percent of the students who 'graduated.'

The fact is that of the students who graduate with their black belt, they are but a percentage of those who sign up for martial arts. I'd be willing to bet that less than 60% of those who sign up for a martial arts class stick around and make it through the entire syllabus.

So 90% of the remaining 60% quit after black belt. Which means that probably 99% of those in your school will be gone after black belt.

Kind of puts into perspective all those belt testing fees, extra clubs and programs, and putting black belts on kids. If you only put them on the adult students, you get even less income and with a 99% drop out rate, every penny counts, and enrollment is vital in order to keep the flow of students coming in high enough for the school remain viable.

Based on some other articles and threads it seems about 3% who start make it to black belt. Then maybe 3% of those reach 2nd dan, it wouldn't surprise me if it was an even smaller percentage who reached 3rd. That's 1:1,000 who reach 2nd dan and about 1:40,000 who reach 3rd.

I think around 10% of black belts make it to 2nd at the school I train at, that's only 1:350, if 10% of those reach 3rd that's 1:10,000.

I wonder if drop out rates for gyms/health clubs is similar? Do 97% of clients quit within the first 3 years?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I wonder if drop out rates for gyms/health clubs is similar? Do 97% of clients quit within the first 3 years?

It would seem there is a great swell in gym numbers because of the New Years resolutions, but most don't make it past February.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Based on some other articles and threads it seems about 3% who start make it to black belt. Then maybe 3% of those reach 2nd dan, it wouldn't surprise me if it was an even smaller percentage who reached 3rd. That's 1:1,000 who reach 2nd dan and about 1:40,000 who reach 3rd.

I think around 10% of black belts make it to 2nd at the school I train at, that's only 1:350, if 10% of those reach 3rd that's 1:10,000.

I wonder if drop out rates for gyms/health clubs is similar? Do 97% of clients quit within the first 3 years?

Probably more than that. A lot of people want to get into shape but are not comfortable at the gym. They figure out that they don't like being on display and they quit. A good number of those people may try martial arts because the clothing is less revealing. Not to mention that most people do not enjoy the gym; they'd rather be doing something else. Since they don't have to go to the gym, as soon as a viable excuse manifests, they quit.

 

[Gorilla]

Two years ago this thread had only 10k views now it at 18k!!!!

Seems to have a life of its own!

Quick up date....my daughter will be 21 in 2015 and will be testing for 4th dan and my son will be 18 in 2015 and will also test for 4th Dan! KKW Tkd!

My daughter will have 10 years experience in TKD and my son 14 years experience!


BTW they both have picked up a BB in Shotokan Karate along the way!

Many people people have stated on this BBS that they don't deserve their BB! I find that funny!

 

[TrueJim]

In whose eyes? Kukkiwon recognizes under 15 as a Poom, at his school he is a 1st Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. Not sure what the schools affiliation will put on his paperwork though. Have to wait a bit and see.

No he doesn't train 6 days x 2 hours per week. How many black belts reading this now do that? Every child progresses at different rates. Prior to a state tournament last year he was doing 5 days x 4 hours which included 2 hours of conditioning and 2 hours of sparring drills. He won the tourny.

For what it's worth, I agree with TKD_Father on this one. I guess it depends on your definition of Black Belt. At the school I go to (Kukkiwon-style), we have several kids in the 12-16 year-old range who've only been doing taekwondo for about three years, 3-4 times a week. They have their 1st dan black belts. They're absolutely amazing. Watching them do their forms is like watching one of the Kukkiwon videos on YouTube: the kids are flawless, with excellent snap and precision. Yes the only tournaments they go to are local tournaments (hundreds of competitors), so maybe they're not competing at National levels, but they're still beating out lots of other kids to win their trophies. They break well, they spar well, our school's Demo Team gets invited to far-away tournaments to put on their show, etc. I don't know how much more black-belty a person could be in the Kukkiwon-style than these guys are. (From the standpoint of demos/forms/breaking, it probably helps that our instructors used to be K-Tigers.)

Training for 8 years, 6 days a week, 2 hours a day...before getting to 1st dan/poom? That sounds to me like an exceptionally high standard. Not that that's a bad thing of course, but I've seen kids with 3 years of training who are just excellent.