Your students or not?

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ATC

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There was something that peeked my interest and I just want to get a feel for what others think.

It was stated to me that because I am not the owner or Master Instructor of a school that none of the students that learn under me can be consider my students. Now I assist in classes that I don't head but do from time to time head some classes on my own.

Do you think that you can call students that you teach your students, or are they simply students of the Master instructor only?

I say we are all students of the Master of the school but those that we teach are also our students as well.

I think this is a very good topic and it will be interesting to see what others think.
 

K-man

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There was something that peeked my interest and I just want to get a feel for what others think.

It was stated to me that because I am not the owner or Master Instructor of a school that none of the students that learn under me can be consider my students. Now I assist in classes that I don't head but do from time to time head some classes on my own.

Do you think that you can call students that you teach your students, or are they simply students of the Master instructor only?

I say we are all students of the Master of the school but those that we teach are also our students as well.

I think this is a very good topic and it will be interesting to see what others think.
If you are the regular instructor then they are your students. If you are assisting in their instruction I feel that they would consider themselves students of the head instructor. How would the students think of you?
 

andyjeffries

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This came up recently on here.

Previous thread.

You might not get as much of a response here because of it (it's not people ignoring you specifically, just that it was two pages of discussion and people may feel they've already given their thoughts/feelings).
 

puunui

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It was stated to me that because I am not the owner or Master Instructor of a school that none of the students that learn under me can be consider my students.

That's not what I stated to you, but that's ok.


Now I assist in classes that I don't head but do from time to time head some classes on my own.

When I was in your situation, I considered the people below me to be my juniors, and those above me to be my seniors. I never considered the people I taught on an assisting or fill in basis to be my students. I considered that to be part of what a good senior did, which is to help their juniors. The teacher was the teacher, with the sole exception being the soo suk sabum or head assistant, who was also considered a teacher, since they lead the class regularly, and to a certain extent set the curriculum.
 
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ATC

ATC

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That's not what I stated to you, but that's ok.
Sorry, that is how I percieved it. Not in a bad way.


When I was in your situation, I considered the people below me to be my juniors, and those above me to be my seniors. I never considered the people I taught on an assisting or fill in basis to be my students. I considered that to be part of what a good senior did, which is to help their juniors. The teacher was the teacher, with the sole exception being the soo suk sabum or head assistant, who was also considered a teacher, since they lead the class regularly, and to a certain extent set the curriculum.
This statement tells me that we are on the same page.
 

terryl965

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There can only be one head instructor, that is the school owner. Now with that being said we all have seniors and juniors, seniors are those a head of me in the pecking order and juniors are those that are below me. In your stituation those that you teach would be your juniors.

ATC students belong to the school so I have always hated that word students. The only way a students is your if you own the dojaang or run the whole concept.
 

Tony49

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There can only be one head instructor, that is the school owner. Now with that being said we all have seniors and juniors, seniors are those a head of me in the pecking order and juniors are those that are below me. In your stituation those that you teach would be your juniors.

ATC students belong to the school so I have always hated that word students. The only way a students is your if you own the dojaang or run the whole concept.

Now, I know a lot of you get your certificates from KKW, but I look at it this way they are your students if you Sign their Certificate and not as a witness. My Wife and I own a school and we offer three Styles TKD, Kenpo and Eskrima. In Kenpo and Eskrima the students are both hers and mine. However, in TKD they all hers since she has a TKD Blackbelt and I do not.

Another way to look at it is did you teach that student from white to black or did they just have one or two classes with you through out their progression to black.
 

StudentCarl

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I'm pretty junior as a cho-dan class assistant a couple nights a week with the younger kids' classes. When they grow and succeed I feel some pride for supporting that. I go to their testings and help coach those who join the competition team.

They are mine like a little brother or sister is mine. I'm not dad or mom, but I have made a commitment to their growth. I don't claim to be the parent, but what they do reflects on me too, as I'm committed to my dojang family. I think that kind of "mine" is very appropriate.
 

msmitht

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I own a school and have 2 asst instructors. They are my students and instructors in training. The students belong to the school, regardless of who is teaching them. I am the chief master so I am the highest authority at my school.
I guess that makes them my students. I am a student of the kkw tkd academy. My gm passed away many years ago and I have not found an honest korean gm to train under so I go to seminars and train with kkw instructors.
 

puunui

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ATC students belong to the school so I have always hated that word students. The only way a students is your if you own the dojaang or run the whole concept.


I understand what you are trying to say and part of me wants to agree with you, especially as it relates to Kwan relationships. But to me, the teacher student dynamic is a personal relationship, and because of that the student is bonded to the teacher, not the school. So I wouldn't say that the students belong to the school, per se. Slightly different nuance, belonging to a Kwan and the teacher student relationship. I don't know if I am explaining this correctly.
 

puunui

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My gm passed away many years ago and I have not found an honest korean gm to train under so I go to seminars and train with kkw instructors.


Sorry to hear that. The way you phrased that says a lot.
 

ralphmcpherson

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At our school I would be considered the student of my actual instructor. I am currently training under a 7th dan and he is considered my instructor, and on any club paperwork I fill in I write that I am a student of his. There is a grey area though because a lot of people will say to me "whose black belt are you?", in which case I say my original instructors name because we are considered a black belt of whichever instructor gets you to black belt. When I received my 1st dan I bowed to our GM, then turned and bowed to my current instructor and then bowed to the instructor who got me to black belt. Even if I train under my current instructor for the next 20 years I will always be my original instructor's black belt.
 

Balrog

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When I first joined my current school, I was a colored belt and then a Black Belt trainee instructor under the school owner. However, I was given responsibility for teaching specific classes and I always considered those students to be "my" students, predominantly from the feeling of happiness that I got in seeing them succeed and move up. Officially, though, they were my instructor's students.

Now I own the school. My instructor has moved, but he is still my instructor and I am his student. The students in my school are officially my students, but he gets to count them in his "lineage". I have a student who has opened his own school. His students are officially his, but I get to count them in my lineage, as does my instructor. Think of a family tree as the best visualization.
 

miguksaram

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At the school I attend, I teach classes regularly. However, when it comes time to sign up for a tournament I have always told the student to put down Sensei Sharkey as their teacher.

The only time I have ever told them to put me down as the teacher is when they were my sword students (since that class is exclusively mine and is separate from the school), or if they were signing up for a TKD activity. As I mentioned before, I have one student who is part of the school, but I do private lessons with him for TKD.

I look at it this way. If you are a public school substitute teacher stepping in every now and then for class, can you really consider those kids your students?
 

msmitht

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Sorry to hear that. The way you phrased that says a lot.

Was not to meant towards all korean gms. I have tried, over the past 14 years, to find one to train under. They all either want to be in charge of my school or attend my testings ($). One wanted me to pay him 2500 for my 5th dan. Kkw charged 300. Another wanted me to learn the palgwe cause he didn't like taeguek. All wanted a ton of cash.
There were a few good ones but too far to travel to consistantly. I found a great one nearby but he is retired. Heard his golf swing is awesome...
 

puunui

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Was not to meant towards all korean gms. I have tried, over the past 14 years, to find one to train under. They all either want to be in charge of my school or attend my testings ($). One wanted me to pay him 2500 for my 5th dan. Kkw charged 300. Another wanted me to learn the palgwe cause he didn't like taeguek. All wanted a ton of cash.
There were a few good ones but too far to travel to consistantly. I found a great one nearby but he is retired. Heard his golf swing is awesome...


Like I said, the way you phrased it says a lot.
 

Flying Crane

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I'd say the students probably know who is actually teaching them, and who is not, regardless of the formalities of who is the school owner/head instructor vs. assistant, whatever.
 
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ATC

ATC

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I look at it this way. If you are a public school substitute teacher stepping in every now and then for class, can you really consider those kids your students?
Ahhh...but if you are a sub that teaches 1 or 2 subject (classes) every day, assist all subjects (classes) every day, and also subs for all subject (classes) when the primary teacher is out, then what do you call the kids?
 

puunui

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Ahhh...but if you are a sub that teaches 1 or 2 subject (classes) every day, assist all subjects (classes) every day, and also subs for all subject (classes) when the primary teacher is out, then what do you call the kids?


You call them your juniors.
 

JohnEdward

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I find it fascinating this aspect about martial arts that students are property and instructors have priority rights between one another. I am not sure where instructors priority rights comes from, why it happens or it exists. It makes me uncomfortable and seems unnecessary. An illusionary sense of power over others I don't understand. Shouldn't the students make that call of which instructor they prefer?
 
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