instructor/student relationship- what to do?

Laurentkd

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Ok, I have a question for you guys. I plan on letting my instructor know what happened and do whatever he thinks I should do, but he may ask my opinion so I thought I would get your opinion...

We have discussed before the pros/cons to a instructor dating a student and I think most of us are in agreement that 99% of the time it is a big no-no. There is a student at my school who has hinted at having an interest in me (to my instructor no less) and has been nicely but simply told that "that is not how we do things here." This student is a transfer-in green belt student and has been training with us for about six months. I think things were much more lax at his old school, because his peers and seniors have been trying hard to show him "our way" but to little effect (for example-not telling jokes during class, not trying to tell a black belt how to hold a target, not telling the center ref that that head shot when no head contact was allowed was really a shot to the chest, etc). This guy is really frustrating and I have less patience for him than my instructor does. I think it is either a confidence issue (which is why we are being so patient) or an authority issues (which may become a bigger problem).

Anyway... I was out with the girls last night and this guy was there. I said hello and basically left it at that (he was checking ID's). But as I walked out the door he slipped me a note which said "I like you. Can we talk?"

Now he has already been told this is not a possibility. This is why I am starting to believe that he is not trying to prove he can fit in with everyone, but rather doesn't care what rules and guidelines have been set down within our dojang. (Which is very unattractive by the way).

So, what is my next step (besides letting my instructor know)? Do I gently explain it to him as if he doesn't already know, do I try to squash this more firmly? what do you think?
Thanks everyone!
 

Jade Tigress

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Well, I may be oversimplifying things here, but why don't you just tell him you're not interested? Him, "Can we talk?" .... You, "No."

You don't even have to bring the training issue up. It's not like you'd be interested if training wasn't a factor right? If he continues to hound you over it, then go to your instructor.
 

theletch1

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Well, I may be oversimplifying things here, but why don't you just tell him you're not interested? Him, "Can we talk?" .... You, "No."

You don't even have to bring the training issue up. It's not like you'd be interested if training wasn't a factor right? If he continues to hound you over it, then go to your instructor.
What she said. I don't think that this is a "break it to him gently" kinda thing. If he hasn't already taken the hint it's time to tell him, with no wiggle room at all, no. You've already tried the gentle method, no? A firm no should put an end to it. If it doesn't then your instructor may not be the next person you need to talk to... it may be the police for harassment. DO NOT do anything to give this guy the idea that you are the slightest bit interested... and that includes being gentle.
 

IcemanSK

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Well, I may be oversimplifying things here, but why don't you just tell him you're not interested? Him, "Can we talk?" .... You, "No."

You don't even have to bring the training issue up. It's not like you'd be interested if training wasn't a factor right? If he continues to hound you over it, then go to your instructor.

I'm in agreement with Jade on this.

There are 2 things going on here: one is a dojang ettiquette issue, the other a personal issue. As Jade said, it's not like you'd be into him if training wasn't a factor. It's your STOP sign that you're holdin' up for him, not the dojang's rules. If you're not into him, it wouldn't matter if your sa bum wanted you to date him.

Your "no" is the final word. You have the power here, Master Lauren.
 

Sukerkin

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I'm not quite sure that this is a situation in which the instructor of your dojo should be involved.

I'm also not sure of your age (it's an impolite thing to ask after all) but your profile says you've been training in martial arts for 18 years, which means that you're not a teenager and so, I'm assuming, neither is the fellow whose attentions you do not require (there's an implicit question in there somewhere :D).

If he has been told that dating in the dojo is not the 'done thing' and has not made advances there, then he is doing as he was informed - to the letter if not the spirit at any rate.

You were in a social situation when he passed you the note and had not approached you during the night, nor indeed at any other time if I read the 'thumbnail' background correctly.

What I'm leading towards is the premis I voiced above i.e. that this is not really a martial arts or personal conduct issue which your instructor should have any input on.

If you don't like the fellow, then tell him so rather than involving an 'authority figure' in your mutual hobby. After all, there are a myriad ways to tell a chap his interestis not reciprocated, ranging from the courteous to the blunt.

Without knowing the man, advising which way to choose is impossible, particularly as his actions so far indicate either a great deal of shyness where sexual attraction is involved or a general inability to interact socially in a confident manner that is not confrontational.

Sorry, reading back through what I just wrote, that's not very helpful is it :(. Other than perhaps that I really do think you should tell the fellow yourself rather than 'make it official' so to speak.
 

terryl965

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Jade and other have a great point, but there is option two boot to the head should do the trick since he is so thick headed.
 

Carol

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LaurenTKD said:
But as I walked out the door he slipped me a note which said "I like you. Can we talk?"

Now he has already been told this is not a possibility. This is why I am starting to believe that he is not trying to prove he can fit in with everyone, but rather doesn't care what rules and guidelines have been set down within our dojang. (Which is very unattractive by the way).

If he continues to hound you over it, then go to your instructor.

It sounds like he is continuing.

I can't speak as an instructor. However, I can speak as a businesswoman.

Go to your instructor. You dont have a relationship with the student, you have one person that isn't getting the "no means no" part. This is becoming sexual harrassment.

Most states have sexual harrassment laws. You are protected under those laws, and your instructor may be legally bound under those laws (depending on the specifics of your state's civil rights laws, number of employees, and a few other factors.)

Bottom line, there is more at stake than just you and this horny dude. If something like this goes awry, the school's reputation and the instructor's reputation can suffer terribly.....even if it isn't anything that you have done or anything that is your fault.

If you respect your instructor....go to him and let him know so he can address the situation in a way that he sees fit....and in a way that is hopefully acceptable to you as well. Good luck.
 

granfire

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Hmmmm....


Since my instructor is married to a former student....


K, 2 issues - no, actually only one: Do you like the guy? If the answer is no, then everything else is point less you tell him to take a hike. And since he obviously doesn't take hints, straight talk is in order.

If on the other hand you do like him...then you still need to make it clear that clowning in class is a big no-no (trying to get your attention? It has happened before that a student makes mistakes to attract the instructors one-on-one...)


Seems to me he is not the least bit your type... so just tell him you are not interested!
 

Drac

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Well, I may be oversimplifying things here, but why don't you just tell him you're not interested? Him, "Can we talk?" .... You, "No."

You don't even have to bring the training issue up. It's not like you'd be interested if training wasn't a factor right? If he continues to hound you over it, then go to your instructor.

What she said. I don't think that this is a "break it to him gently" kinda thing. If he hasn't already taken the hint it's time to tell him, with no wiggle room at all, no. You've already tried the gentle method, no? A firm no should put an end to it. If it doesn't then your instructor may not be the next person you need to talk to... it may be the police for harassment. DO NOT do anything to give this guy the idea that you are the slightest bit interested... and that includes being gentle.

Ditto on both....
 

jks9199

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I'm going to have to agree with everyone else.

This guy doesn't seem to get gentle hints. Treat him like mule; slap him with a (metaphorical) 2x4 to get his attention, and tell him you aren't interested.

The class behavior is a different side to the same problem. I'd say all the instructors need to slap him down hard as soon as he starts up. Drop him for pushups, put him on the sidelines, disqualify him right away.
 

morph4me

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I have to agree with everyone else.

He doesn't sound like the kind of guy who will understand a gentle explanation, he needs to be told in no uncertain terms that you aren't interested. You don't have to explain yourself, just tell him you aren't interested.

I am assuming that the fact that he's a student is not the only reason that you aren't interested, if it is, then you may be able to find a way to work around that somehow.
 
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Laurentkd

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It sounds like he is continuing.

I can't speak as an instructor. However, I can speak as a businesswoman.

Go to your instructor. You dont have a relationship with the student, you have one person that isn't getting the "no means no" part. This is becoming sexual harrassment.

Most states have sexual harrassment laws. You are protected under those laws, and your instructor may be legally bound under those laws (depending on the specifics of your state's civil rights laws, number of employees, and a few other factors.)

Bottom line, there is more at stake than just you and this horny dude. If something like this goes awry, the school's reputation and the instructor's reputation can suffer terribly.....even if it isn't anything that you have done or anything that is your fault.

If you respect your instructor....go to him and let him know so he can address the situation in a way that he sees fit....and in a way that is hopefully acceptable to you as well. Good luck.


Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I think Carol did a better job at explaining why I plan on telling my instructor than I did! It is not that I want my instructor to handle the situation for me, but rather I feel I owe him the courtesy of letting him know now what is going on rather than risk something bad blindsiding him and having to fill him in after the fact. I want to handle the situation in a way we are both comfortable with so that we can both live with any consequences.
I appreciate you telling me to tell him straight to lay off. I tend always be a pretty nice person, and try to continue to be nice even to people I don't like. And being an instructor I try to be helpful to everyone and to be friendly (although not really "friends") to all students. Unfortunately, it seems some of the male species equates being nice to being attracted. So I guess it is just time to stop being so nice huh?


I'm going to have to agree with everyone else.

The class behavior is a different side to the same problem. I'd say all the instructors need to slap him down hard as soon as he starts up. Drop him for pushups, put him on the sidelines, disqualify him right away.

Thanks. It is funny you say this because just in the last week or so all of us have starting moving beyond the "helpful advice" stage to the "call him out and make it crystal clear" stage. You just never know when someone first comes in WHY they behave the way they do. We tried to assume the best (that he was just nervous coming into a new school and a new environment and trying to prove that he is not brand new to the arts by showing how much he knows), but it seems this guy is a different character.

for what it is worth, I am 25 and am not the LEAST bit interested in this guy.

Thanks again for your help guys. You all affirmed how I was feeling, which I take to be a good sign :)
 

Kacey

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Well, I may be oversimplifying things here, but why don't you just tell him you're not interested? Him, "Can we talk?" .... You, "No."

You don't even have to bring the training issue up. It's not like you'd be interested if training wasn't a factor right? If he continues to hound you over it, then go to your instructor.

I'm getting to this a little late (I've been really busy the last several days) - but first, I'm going to agree with the majority. If you're not interested, say no. Be firm.

It sounds, from what you've said, like this guy has gotten some kind of hint, since he slipped you the note outside the dojang, not inside. If he is only bothering you outside of the dojang, I'm not sure what your instructor can do about it, except to file the information with the other problems this guy presents, and use it as he makes his decisions about how to deal with him. If he is persisting in the dojang, then yes, your instructor needs to know - but if it's only outside, there's really nothing he can do about it.

Overall, however, he sounds like the type of student an instructor can afford to lose.
 

exile

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Lauren, I think everyone who's posted so far has a valid angle. I'm going to line up with the hard-liners here. The line What part of 'No' don't you understand?? has become a cliché&#8212;but only because it's true.

There's only so much your instructor can do, even if you bring him in. You may be dealing here with a guy who simply does not know how to take 'no' for an answer. My interpretation of his passing you the note outside the dojang is that he just wants to minimize the possibility of outside interference, so to speak. The only way he will finally have to swallow the fact that you don't want to have anything to do with him is for you to tell him that no, you are not interested, as absolutely and pitilessly as possible.

Believe it or not, a normal, reasonable guy would rather hear that straight out than some kind of equivocation. A normal reasonable guy wants to know where he stands, and even if he doesn't like being told no, he'd rather know what the situation is early on. But if you tell this guy 'no', straight out and without trying to soften it, or to 'be nice', or anything, and he persists... well, that tells you something, and at that point, what Carol said about sexual harassment kicks in big time.

I think it might be worth mentioning the problem to your instructor, but not because you want his intervention, but rather to establish a 'paper trail' if you need to pursue the thing legally. That probably won't happen, but it doesn't hurt to set up your case in advance, should it come down to pursuing more severe sanctions against this guy in the event that he won't take 'no' for an answer.
 

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Definitely tell your Instructor. As the teacher of the class, he has a right and obligation to know what's going on between students.
Best thing, obviously, is to establish between you and this guy that you are not interested. You and him can have a professional relationship as fellow students, but that's it.
Barring that, tell your Instructor. He should meet with the two of you and let him know how things are: aside from the "no dating in class" rule, she's not interested in you that way. Aside from finding common ground between the three of you (you, him, and the instructor), it also allows for witnesses in case something happens.
I don't recommend taking it out in free fighting. It probably, from the sounds of things, wouldn't take much for him to become resentful and escalate things.
 

shesulsa

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If you haven't already told him "no" to his face, do so now and remind him of the dojang policy - make sure he understands it. Make him tell you yes or no. If he says he understands it and persists then tell him that he is out of line both personally and professionally and to leave you alone from now on. If he claims to be ignorant of it, tell him he may want to discuss it with your instructor.

Then talk to your instructor - waste no time.

You can start nice, but it's simple self-defense; if you tag them and they keep on coming at you, you ramp up as necessary until the threat is eliminated.

So generally, I agree with everyone else.
 

Jade Tigress

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Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I think Carol did a better job at explaining why I plan on telling my instructor than I did! It is not that I want my instructor to handle the situation for me, but rather I feel I owe him the courtesy of letting him know now what is going on rather than risk something bad blindsiding him and having to fill him in after the fact. I want to handle the situation in a way we are both comfortable with so that we can both live with any consequences.
I appreciate you telling me to tell him straight to lay off. I tend always be a pretty nice person, and try to continue to be nice even to people I don't like. And being an instructor I try to be helpful to everyone and to be friendly (although not really "friends") to all students. Unfortunately, it seems some of the male species equates being nice to being attracted. So I guess it is just time to stop being so nice huh?

Lauren, I feel your pain. I too am too "nice". I think you're right about some guys equating being nice, with being attracted, and even if you realize that, when it's part of your personality, it's hard to do different. You keep hoping they'll "get the hint." But as was discussed in another thread, guys don't often pick up on the hints we think we're being so clear about.

There is a quote by a Stephen King character which I try to remind myself of constantly since I have the same problem you do with being too nice in situations you shouldn't be, "Sometimes you have to be a high-riding ***** to survive."

If it makes you more comfortable to discuss it with your instructor, then by all means, do. My train of thought was giving this guy the wrong impression that the only reason you don't want to date him is because you're training together. Which may encourage him the wrong way.

Keep us posted. :)
 

morph4me

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Lauren, I feel your pain. I too am too "nice". I think you're right about some guys equating being nice, with being attracted, and even if you realize that, when it's part of your personality, it's hard to do different. You keep hoping they'll "get the hint." But as was discussed in another thread, guys don't often pick up on the hints we think we're being so clear about.

There is a quote by a Stephen King character which I try to remind myself of constantly since I have the same problem you do with being too nice in situations you shouldn't be, "Sometimes you have to be a high-riding ***** to survive."

If it makes you more comfortable to discuss it with your instructor, then by all means, do. My train of thought was giving this guy the wrong impression that the only reason you don't want to date him is because you're training together. Which may encourage him the wrong way.

Keep us posted. :)


It's nice to be nice, but some people will misinterpret nice for weak or unsure. When nice doesn't work, it's time to be a "*****" in order to get the message across. It's the only thing some people will understand.
 

jim777

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I'm in agreement with Jade on this.

There are 2 things going on here: one is a dojang ettiquette issue, the other a personal issue. As Jade said, it's not like you'd be into him if training wasn't a factor. It's your STOP sign that you're holdin' up for him, not the dojang's rules. If you're not into him, it wouldn't matter if your sa bum wanted you to date him.

Your "no" is the final word. You have the power here, Master Lauren.

I agree with Iceman here.

Now, if I had to choose between my wife (or for the sake of argument, my 'possibly one day future wife') and my school I'd be looking for another school, simple as that. I don't see how the school attains a position of determining who you can and can't see outside of the dojang. Does that rule assume the instructors aren't capable of leaving their personal feelings outside the dojang? Would you unfairly score a sparring match, or unfairly vote to promote because of an emotional attachment? I just think that rule is a bit presumptuous. Maybe it is designed to shield students from possibly predatory isntructors? "Date me or stay at 5th kyu forever BWAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!" I guess I can see that one...still, I don't think it's a fair stance for a school to take.
 

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