Young black belts, no problem - young grandmaster...hmm?

[dancingalone]

That is how it is done in kendo. And yes, it works very well. Isn't it also the same in aikido and goju?

In the particular styles I practice, yes. In USAF (Aikikai) aikido, we have fukushidoin (asst/junior instructor), shidoin (instructor), and shihan ('master', used to designate a senior level teacher). In goju, we have the shogo titles of renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi, although it's not as uniformly implemented.

In theory, the teaching titles are decoupled from the dan levels, but I've never met a high ranker in either art here in North America who did NOT run a dojo at least at some point. However, I understand at the Jundokan on Okinawa there is are numbers of high level dan 6th+ who have been studying there for decades, but they aren't really teachers on their own since the Jundokan has ample senior instructors already. So mostly they just serve as senior examples.

 

[puunui]

If we in the west didn't care so much about titles, none of this would amount to a hill of beans.

Funny, and I've said this before, but when the seniors get together, they never talk about what rank they are. And they don't ask each other what their rank is either.

 

[dancingalone]

Funny, and I've said this before, but when the seniors get together, they never talk about what rank they are. And they don't ask each other what their rank is either.

Honestly then why have them? How did the title system come about in taekwondo? Who first accepted the title of grandmaster, etc?

 

[puunui]

Honestly then why have them? How did the title system come about in taekwondo? Who first accepted the title of grandmaster, etc?

I don't know about the title system, but in 1971, the KTA started the International Master Instructor (Kuk Je Sabum) program, a program that was eventually taken over by the WTF. Around the same time, taekwondo instructors who wished to open a dojang in Korea were required to take an instructor course and obtain an instructor license, which is similar in intent and function as a board certification for doctors or passing the bar for attorneys. This is the Kukkiwon Instructor Course today.

The KTA, Kukkiwon and WTF do not have a "Grandmaster" certification program.

In one of his books, GM LEE Kyong Myong stated that 1st-5th Dan (yudanja) are considered "master" rank, and 6th-9th Dan (kodanja) are considered grandmaster rank. Later, when GM Lee became one of the chief authors of books and other publications for the Kukkiwon, KTA and/or WTF his idea and explanation was adopted.

But the point I was trying to make is that to non korean practitioners, the idea of dan rank seems paramount, to the point where people do all sorts of crazy things to get higher and higher rank. To the korean born senior, they are not so interested in such things, except perhaps when interacting with the non-korean students and juniors.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know about the title system, but in 1971, the KTA started the International Master Instructor (Kuk Je Sabum) program, a program that was eventually taken over by the WTF. Around the same time, taekwondo instructors who wished to open a dojang in Korea were required to take an instructor course and obtain an instructor license, which is similar in intent and function as a board certification for doctors or passing the bar for attorneys. This is the Kukkiwon Instructor Course today.

Personally, I like the idea of formalizing the process through which certain titles are granted, though I have no idea what the broad thought is on that. A title frequently is used as a credential of sorts - no reason why then objective requirements couldn't be attached to gaining it, such as graduating an Instructor Course.

But the point I was trying to make is that to non korean practitioners, the idea of dan rank seems paramount, to the point where people do all sorts of crazy things to get higher and higher rank. To the korean born senior, they are not so interested in such things, except perhaps when interacting with the non-korean students and juniors.

Yes, it's almost a dichotomy there. Similar to how Yamada Shihan prefers to be addressed as Yamada Sensei instead. Yet...why have the Shihan title in the first place? Why have the title of Grandmaster in TKD?

I'm not convinced it is all about interacting with us rank-crazed westerners, at least with Japanese/Okinawan martial arts. The shogo ranks were created by the Dai Nippon Botoku Kai well before the first American darkened the door of a post WWII dojo. As they exist and will continue to exist, I'd rather see their award and usage made uniform and meaningful.

 

[puunui]

Personally, I like the idea of formalizing the process through which certain titles are granted, though I have no idea what the broad thought is on that. A title frequently is used as a credential of sorts - no reason why then objective requirements couldn't be attached to gaining it, such as graduating an Instructor Course.

After thinking about it a little more, I believe that there is a sort of formalization process, through the Kukkiwon Instructor certification program. For example, to receive the 3rd Class license, you have to be a Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above. If you are 3rd Dan and below, you can take the course and they will give you a graduation certificate, but not the license until you are 4th Dan. To be 2nd Class, I believe you have to be a Kukkiwon 6th Dan and for 1st Class, you have to be a Kukkiwon 8th Dan. So there is that.

Yes, it's almost a dichotomy there. Similar to how Yamada Shihan prefers to be addressed as Yamada Sensei instead. Yet...why have the Shihan title in the first place? Why have the title of Grandmaster in TKD?

I think it came about to distinguish between lower rank practitioners.

I'm not convinced it is all about interacting with us rank-crazed westerners, at least Japanese/Okinawan martial arts. The shogo ranks were created by the Dai Nippon Botoku Kai well before the first American darkened the door of a post WWII dojo. As they exist and will continue to exist, I'd rather see their award and usage made uniform and meaningful.

The Korean martial arts really didn't adopt that aspect of Japanese martial arts, at least not to the same extent. They instead went primarily with dan rank. I was looking through some old black belt magazines from the 60s, and the instructor were referred to as "Mr.". Later, the title changed to "master" and now "grandmaster", "supreme grandmaster" "eternal grandmaster" and so forth.

I'm personally not into titles, but I can tell you that many non-korean practitioners are. Almost every time I visit a martial arts supply store in Korea, there is generally one westerner making some outrageous looking overly wide belt with as much writing and stripes on it that the belt can hold. Then you look at the patch covered silk or satin uniform they are ordering and you understand why the belt has to be that way. It wouldn't match otherwise. Personally, the only thing I put on my dobok from korea is my name in hangul on the top and pants (no patches), if that, and on my belt, my name and the name of my organization, with no rank stripes.

 

[puunui]

As they exist and will continue to exist, I'd rather see their award and usage made uniform and meaningful.

On uniform and meaningful, I think you are applying standards which are applicable to a small organization from another style, to the largest organization of any style. I think it is impractical and at this point, unworkable. People have their opinions on what is and isn't acceptable. Generally those standards tend to change over time, in much the same way that the level of parental discipline changes with each additional child added to the family. And once that parent becomes a grandparent, then all parental discipline standards go out the window.

Even when a student from the strictest dojang transfers to another school, the new instructor always tries to "tweak" that new student to his or her way of doing things. No one has the same standards on anything.

The Kukkiwon does have a built in program for standards, through their Instructor Courses as well as through the high dan promotion process. There are exceptions, for exceptional people, but as a general rule, in order to be promoted to Kukkiwon 8th and 9th Dan, you have to pass a physical test at the Kukkiwon itself. People flunk these examinations. So someone can get another to promote them up to Kukkiwon 7th Dan, but you won't make it to Kukkiwon 8th or 9th Dan if you don't have a measurable acceptable level of skill. The test itself can be nerve racking, performing before a test board made up of Kwan Presidents from the nine kwan, some of whom who invented the very poomsae that you are performing.

 

[dancingalone]

On uniform and meaningful, I think you are applying standards which are applicable to a small organization from another style, to the largest organization of any style. I think it is impractical and at this point, unworkable.

I hope I am not displaying too much hubris in disagreeing with you. As the largest MA organization world-wide, the KKW is precisely in the position to create and enforce standards for the betterment of TKD in general. Not necessarily just in terms of titles either.

People on this board often talk about certification and what makes it desirable to people. As a school owner, I'd be a proud proponent of KKW certification if along with the many positive things it currently does, the KKW also had a strong review/certification process for lower dan ranks.

By the way, the USAF and Aikikai certainly don't come near the numbers that the KKW can boast. Nonetheless both are larger entities as far as martial arts orgs come, and the two lower teaching titles as presently bestowed are aligned with a kensushei or teacher instruction program.

 

[puunui]

I hope I am not displaying too much hubris in disagreeing with you.

No problem. You never get disrespectful or angry, and if you do, you don't hold on to your anger. Plus, you back up your points with facts and aren't into misdirection or deception just to "win". Disagree with me as much as you want. Having discussions with you only makes me better.

As the largest MA organization world-wide, the KKW is precisely in the position to create and enforce standards for the betterment of TKD in general. Not necessarily just in terms of titles either.

I understand what you are saying. And in conjunction with the WTF, the Kukkiwon is in a sense creating and enforcing standards, through competition. If you watch tournament footage from 30 years ago, you will see a variety of styles as far as kyorugi or sparring went. Today, everyone looks very similar to each other, mainly because the rules encourage and to a certain extent require everyone to look similar, in order to score points. Today, the same is occurring in poomsae, through the World Poomsae Championships and other events. The Kukkiwon is also working towards educational programs such as the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. Things are getting more standardized, at least for those who are interested in being within the standards set by the Kukkiwon.

People on this board often talk about certification and what makes it desirable to people. As a school owner, I'd be a proud proponent of KKW certification if along with the many positive things it currently does, the KKW also had a strong review/certification process for lower dan ranks.

The problem is that Kukkiwon certification and licensing is voluntary outside of Korea. If Kukkiwon certification and licensing were mandatory, like it is in Korea, and people competed as much as they do in Korea, we would see much more standardization in taekwondo through the Kukkiwon.

The best that I can tell you is that if you wish to see standardization through the Kukkiwon, then you can first take steps to get yourself standardized, and then standardize your own curriculum according to the Kukkiwon standards. That is the first order of business, taking care of your own area of responsibility.

 

[mastercole]

When the WTF took the ball and ran with it, they made one touch down after the other. Right now, it's at about 200 (Nations in the WTF) and counting. I don't think the Kukkiwon could quite keep up with the explosive growth the WTF created. I think it surprised all the seniors.

What has happened is that for decades Taekwondo has grown rapidly in many nations, and in those nations the original Korean instructors met together and made common, but somewhat loose rules like 4th Dan is instructor, and maybe that means master, etc. Because back home in Korea, no one could take the Sabum exam until they held 4th Dan, and, graduated the Sabum course. There was no course available to non-Koreans during that time, until 1998. So all these people thought they were automatically instructors, or masters at 4th Dan, or 5th.

Those of us who started attending those first years of courses started coming back to our countries and sharing the information we learned in Korea. And some of that information did not match with what had been going on at home all these years. Some of it was shocking to those who had adopted these made up rules from there teachers. When the word started to spread that the earth was not flat, but indeed round, I'm sure the one's spreading that news, which was actually old news, found similar situations.

To me it is really simple. You just have to listen to Korean born masters talk to each other, in Korean. You will hear all these Korean terms used. Hyung, Hyungnim, Seonsangnim, Hoobae, Seonbae, Jeja, Yudanja, Geupja, Kodanja, Sabum, Sabumnin, Kwanjang, Kwanjangnim, Hwejang, Hwejangnim, etc. Westerns might say they are titles. Most all of these are forms of courtesy used in the Korean language.

Westerns, or other nations Taekwondoin then want to know what their title is. The answer is not so clear because other nations do not follow the same society rules of courtesy found in Korea. So as a non-Korean, can I really ever TRULY be a Hyungnim, Hoobae, Seonbae, etc.? I say rarely. But some of these can apply loosely to us. Some can apply officially to us, in special official circumstance.

If our Korean seniors referee to us in any of these forms of courtesy, then, I guess these terms may somewhat, or even fully apply to us.

I think their has been a simple effort to clarify this. Most everyone in Taekwondoin was or is a Jeja (student), most of those were at least a "yugeupja" (geup, or color belt rank holder). Some are Poom holders (upper level child practitioners who are not old enough to have Dan). Yudanja, Dan holders from 1st to 5th. Kodanja, Dan holders from 6th to 9th. Official certifications are issued for these practitioner classifications.

One officially becomes a Sabum by the Kukkiwon, when they pass the test, and are certified as one. Hwejang can come as an official appointment, or election. Taekwondo Kwanjang the same way.

I think it is important to classify that Kukkiwon 1st to 5th Dan Yudanja, and, 6th to 9th Dan Kodanja does not mean instructor, officially it doesn't. Dan has no true bearing on the general official instructor designation. Sabum should mean instructor, you have to pass the Sabum test, not a Dan test.

In the English language, Master can be a formal form related to Mister, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 1st to 5th Dan. I get his picture of the English butler out to calling "Master Worthington", a simple title of respect for a member of the family or household. In English, I think Grandmaster can also be a formal form of Sir, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 6th to 9th Dan.

I think when "Master" is used at 4th Dan, or whatever Dan to mean instructor, or now at 4th Dan one has reached some magical level and gets to wear some special belt, it gives false sense of self to that person and/or to those around them, and that is simply wrong according to Buddhist thought, which is Taekwondo thought. But, in a business sense, it makes sense, if that makes sense

I use the "master" title in my school for all Dan and Poom holders, including myself. That takes away the god like status that has been wrongly applied to black belts, and instructors. All my students will tell you that "master" means Mr, or Ms. The only people that referee to me as Grandmaster are my Korean seniors, they use it in public in front of students or at events or on documents. No one in my school calls me Grandmaster. Most parents call me Al, I ask all American born, and non-Korean Taekwondoin to call me Al, unless we are in front of our students, then I call the person by their formal title. I do use the title Grandmaster in advertising though. That is a different subject.

Other wise if we as non-Korean's start using these Korean terms to refer to ourselves among ourselves, it becomes like these guys who join some group so they can now claim the Japanese title of Soke, when if one really studies what a Soke is, no one living outside of Japan could achieve the true designation as Soke.

 

[puunui]

As a school owner, I'd be a proud proponent of KKW certification if along with the many positive things it currently does, the KKW also had a strong review/certification process for lower dan ranks.

Also, on the idea of the lower ranks, as has been stated by others, most people who take taekwondo quit after achieving 1st Poom/Dan or 2nd Poom/Dan. Therefore, it really does not make all that much sense to require the utmost precision from these yudanja level members. In fact, many instructors tell me that it burns them out to spend all this time and energy working on their color belt masterpieces, only to have them quit soon after making 1st Dan/Poom. However, if someone does stick around to say, 3rd or 4th Dan, then the probability is greater that they will stay for the long term. That is where the Kukkiwon Instructor Courses come in. There are many avenues for 3rd, 4th or higher dan to get additional quality training, and additional certification, whether it is instructor certification, referee certification, or whatever else. So I do not necessarily agree with making "high" standards for 1st or 2nd Dan level practitioners.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'm personally not into titles, but I can tell you that many non-korean practitioners are. Almost every time I visit a martial arts supply store in Korea, there is generally one westerner making some outrageous looking overly wide belt with as much writing and stripes on it that the belt can hold. Then you look at the patch covered silk or satin uniform they are ordering and you understand why the belt has to be that way. It wouldn't match otherwise. Personally, the only thing I put on my dobok from korea is my name in hangul on the top and pants (no patches), if that, and on my belt, my name and the name of my organization, with no rank stripes.

This has largely been my experience, as well. At my dojang (in Korea), the only people who wear any rank stripes on their belts are foreigners who brought their belts from their home countries. I can't recall the last time someone asked me what my rank was. That kind of conversation simply never comes up. People just don't seem too concerned with what dan someone holds. Belts from our club have only the club name and the name of the student.

 

[puunui]

This has largely been my experience, as well. At my dojang (in Korea), the only people who wear any rank stripes on their belts are foreigners who brought their belts from their home countries. I can't recall the last time someone asked me what my rank was. That kind of conversation simply never comes up. People just don't seem too concerned with what dan someone holds. Belts from our club have only the club name and the name of the student.

Thanks for the post. Is your name James?

 

[Jaeimseu]

Thanks for the post. Is your name James?

Yes, it is.

 

[lifespantkd]

Westerns might say they are titles. Most all of these are forms of courtesy used in the Korean language....In the English language, Master can be a formal form related to Mister, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 1st to 5th Dan....I use the "master" title in my school for all Dan and Poom holders, including myself. That takes away the god like status that has been wrongly applied to black belts, and instructors. All my students will tell you that "master" means Mr, or Ms.

I am just 2nd dan. And, I teach Taekwondo. References in my system of Taekwondo tell me to call myself "Master." I do so because it is appropriate in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not because it means that I believe I have attained mastery. Far from it. I simply know more about Taekwondo than my students and they are interested in learning from me. Because "Sabum" means "instructor of martial arts" and I teach, my students call me "Sabumnim." It is merely an ackknowledgment that I am their teacher.

Just like identical terms in the Spanish of Spain and the Spanish of Mexico may not have identical meanings, identical terms of address can have different meanings in different martial arts systems. Knowing those meanings is essential if practitioners from different systems want to successfully understand each other.

Cynthia

 

[mastercole]

I am just 2nd dan. And, I teach Taekwondo. References in my system of Taekwondo tell me to call myself "Master." I do so because it is appropriate in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not because it means that I believe I have attained mastery. Far from it. I simply know more about Taekwondo than my students and they are interested in learning from me. Because "Sabum" means "instructor of martial arts" and I teach, my students call me "Sabumnim." It is merely an ackknowledgment that I am their teacher.

Just like identical terms in the Spanish of Spain and the Spanish of Mexico may not have identical meanings, identical terms of address can have different meanings in different martial arts systems. Knowing those meanings is essential if practitioners from different systems want to successfully understand each other.

Cynthia

There is a big difference. Some American Taekwondoin I know that have went off to Korea to experience teaching in a Taekwondo dojang have experienced a rude awakening, they found out a Sabum (Taekwondo teacher) is looked at by the general Korean society as something between a Lead Burger Flipper and Chief Toilet Washer. Shocking when you come from America where "Black Belt" is the ultimate goal, and people can't wait to get that 4th Gold Stripe so they can not get the Master Patch. So for sure, instructor in the West, and instructor in Korea, actually are two very different things.

 

[lifespantkd]

There is a big difference. Some American Taekwondoin I know that have went off to Korea to experience teaching in a Taekwondo dojang have experienced a rude awakening, they found out a Sabum (Taekwondo teacher) is looked at by the general Korean society as something between a Lead Burger Flipper and Chief Toilet Washer. Shocking when you come from America where "Black Belt" is the ultimate goal, and people can't wait to get that 4th Gold Stripe so they can not get the Master Patch. So for sure, instructor in the West, and instructor in Korea, actually are two very different things.

I practice Taekwondo because I value it as a path of physical, mental, and spiritual development. I teach Taekwondo for the same reason. I do not spend energy thinking about trying to get to a particular rank or trying to get people to see me in a particular way. I simply keep doing what I can to learn more and move along that path for myself and to help others who are interested in doing the same. So, whether I rank high or low in anyone's assessment is irrelevant to me. It's about the journey.

Cynthia

 

[mastercole]

I practice Taekwondo because I value it as a path of physical, mental, and spiritual development. I teach Taekwondo for the same reason. I do not spend energy thinking about trying to get to a particular rank or trying to get people to see me in a particular way. I simply keep doing what I can to learn more and move along that path for myself and to help others who are interested in doing the same. So, whether I rank high or low in anyone's assessment is irrelevant to me. It's about the journey.

Cynthia

I feel a person that holds this view is not distracted by meaningless things, and is going to truly learn and develop real and lasting relationships with their students, juniors, peers and seniors.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In the English language, Master can be a formal form related to Mister, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 1st to 5th Dan. I get his picture of the English butler out to calling "Master Worthington", a simple title of respect for a member of the family or household. In English, I think Grandmaster can also be a formal form of Sir, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 6th to 9th Dan.

Loved your post!

I quoted this part because it is the only part that I had any real comment on. I have never seen the term grandmaster used outside of various fraternal or societal organizations. I have never seen it used as a more formal version of sir.

Regarding the term 'master,' I have seen the usage that you describe. So to has anyone who has ever read Batman. Also, the term is used in various professions, including academics; shipmaster, chess master, schoolmaster, headmaster, master mechanic, master craftsman, etc.

Professionally, it was historially the title used in the guild system and was the next step after a journeyman. I do not believe that the term grandmaster was used in the guild system, but I may also be wrong on that count.

Generally, the term is used to denote somone who is a professional or who oversees other professionals or serves as the authority in a particular setting. I think that we in the MA community like to add a great deal of meaning to what a master is. A great deal of meaning that probably doesn't exist in the parent cultures of most of the arts that are discussed on these boards.

I always think of geub/kyu grade students or their equivallent as apprentices, first through third or fourth dan practitioners or their equivallents (depending upon the system) as journeymen and fourth or fifth dan and up as masters (again, depending on the system). I know that these titles are still used in the trades.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am just 2nd dan. And, I teach Taekwondo. References in my system of Taekwondo tell me to call myself "Master." I do so because it is appropriate in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not because it means that I believe I have attained mastery. Far from it. I simply know more about Taekwondo than my students and they are interested in learning from me. Because "Sabum" means "instructor of martial arts" and I teach, my students call me "Sabumnim." It is merely an ackknowledgment that I am their teacher.

Just like identical terms in the Spanish of Spain and the Spanish of Mexico may not have identical meanings, identical terms of address can have different meanings in different martial arts systems. Knowing those meanings is essential if practitioners from different systems want to successfully understand each other.

Cynthia

Actually, sabum is the equivalent of shihan and means, if I remember correctly, teacher-father or somthing to that effect. Seonsang is the equivalent to sensei, and the general term for an instructor, if I am not mistaken, is kyosa. There is, if I recall, two versions of kyosa, which sound the same phonetically, but have different hanmoon. The other version is the equivalent to kyoshi.

Not criticizing you for calling yourself sabum, so I hope you don't take it that way.

As for Mastercole's statement about a sabum being something along the lines of lead burger flipper or toilet washer, as a single dad who is also an instructor, I am literally, a teacher father, and lead burger flipper and toilet washer have been part of my job description at home for years!