what does your dojang teach?

[RTKDCMB]

In pure tkd there is no grappling.

I study Rhee TKD in Australia it is taught as a traditional martial art of self defence taught in the way it was originally developed before any of the sporting elements were added. Most of the instructors have not significantly trained in anything else and we don't cross train, its about as pure as it gets and I can tell you, there are plenty of grappling techniques in it. It is just not the only primary focus. Your statement is way off base.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).

A strategy based primarily on sporting competition.

Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI?

Basically you are describing a form of free sparring with a focus on grappling instead of striking, in which case most people would answer YES.

Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions?

Too specific - like asking if you teach Chi Sao.

Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know.

Choreographed implies that self defence moves are done for entertainment purposes, they are not. You need minimal resistance to learn and develop the technique, you need increased resistance to ensure the technique will work, full resistance in some things requires full force in the execution of the technique that can lead to serious injury. You want to injure your attacker not your training partner.

 

[Gnarlie]

Some of the statements made in this thread regarding KKW TKD are rather misleading.

The KKW testing requirements specify self defence as one the 5 disciplines required to be demonstrated (the others being sport sparring, breaking, step sparring, and poomsae).

What's specifically within that SD bracket varies greatly with location, school, and individual instructor experience.

At most of the schools I've been part of, grappling has been on the SD agenda in some form, often with hapkido and yudo techniques incorporated, and including some degree of ground work (usually with the defender remaining standing, but not always).

This is particularly true with the Yong In alumni, as there's a strong current of military / security service / yudo accompanying their Taekwondo practice.

So, is grappling specifically on the syllabus? No. But self defence is, and it's hard to practice Taekwondo self defence in any reasonable way with any reasonably experienced trainer and not learn some level of grappling skill.

I spend quite a significant proportion of my training time being thrown or grappled to the ground and doing the same to others, within the KKW framework.

Gnarlie

 

[msmitht]

well considering my school was a kukkiwon style school, i guess i've just shown you that you're wrong. Just because taekwondo is not predominantly a grappling art does not mean it does not contain elements of grappling. This is not an opinion, its a fact. And olympic taekwondo discludes about 90% of taekwondo techniques, so that's not really a relevant point...



Again, taekwondo does teach effective grappling, and even ground fighting. The only difference is that a bjj guy likes being on the floor, a tkd guy doesn't. We can take guys to the ground, but do not want to be down there with them. If we do find ourselves on the ground, everything we do while there is in the effort to get back to our feet. Once again, much different strategy than a bjj guy, but grappling and ground fighting nonetheless

rotflol! If you want to believe that modern Taekwondo, the style that I am referring to(yes, the Olympic style), teaches grappling then good for you. You are wrong. I've been to Korea. I have friends who grew up there.
If you want to go by the wiki definition of grappling then there is "graplling " taught in every style of martial art. Dancing could be considered grappling. I will say again that it is the strategy Behind the techniques that makes it grappling.

 

[MAist25]

^^^ Is something funny?

 

[msmitht]

Some of the statements made in this thread regarding KKW TKD are rather misleading.

The KKW testing requirements specify self defence as one the 5 disciplines required to be demonstrated (the others being sport sparring, breaking, step sparring, and poomsae).

What's specifically within that SD bracket varies greatly with location, school, and individual instructor experience.

At most of the schools I've been part of, grappling has been on the SD agenda in some form, often with hapkido and yudo techniques incorporated, and including some degree of ground work (usually with the defender remaining standing, but not always).

This is particularly true with the Yong In alumni, as there's a strong current of military / security service / yudo accompanying their Taekwondo practice.

So, is grappling specifically on the syllabus? No. But self defence is, and it's hard to practice Taekwondo self defence in any reasonable way with any reasonably experienced trainer and not learn some level of grappling skill.

I spend quite a significant proportion of my training time being thrown or grappled to the ground and doing the same to others, within the KKW framework.

Gnarlie

Correct! Grappling is not a part of tkd(kkw-the Olympic style) syllabus. I'm happy you could confirm it.

 

[msmitht]

I think it is funny. I've been referring to kukkiwon tkd. Most people know that it is the Olympic style.

 

[msmitht]

A strategy based primarily on sporting competition.
And the issue is? Seen it work in sport and on street. That strategy has been around for thousands of years.


Basically you are describing a form of free sparring with a focus on grappling instead of striking, in which case most people would answer YES.
I know world class Taekwondo coaches and players. They say no.



Too specific - like asking if you teach Chi Sao.
Really? Well I can see that I guess. When I started BJJ I didn't know the mount from half guard.



Choreographed implies that self defence moves are done for entertainment purposes, they are not. You need minimal resistance to learn and develop the technique, you need increased resistance to ensure the technique will work, full resistance in some things requires full force in the execution of the technique that can lead to serious injury. You want to injure your attacker not your training partner.

Agree about not wanting to hurt training partners but we practice with full resistance every day in bjj. Do people get hurt? Yes. It takes an long time to learn and many, more than 70%, drop out before achieving brown belt. Most injuries are one of pride or ego due to not wanting to tap.

 

[MAist25]

I think it is funny. I've been referring to kukkiwon tkd. Most people know that it is the Olympic style.

But Kukki Taekwondo isn't Olympic TKD.... You seem to have difficulty understanding that. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic Taekwondo. The World Taekwondo Federation and the Kukkiwon are completely different things.

 

[msmitht]

But Kukki Taekwondo isn't Olympic TKD.... You seem to have difficulty understanding that. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic Taekwondo. The World Taekwondo Federation and the Kukkiwon are completely different things.

Yes it is!!! The wtf oversees competition for kukkiwon Taekwondo stylists! I will be attending a Dan test later this year at the kukkiwon. I referee and coach at WTF events. If you look at international rules of competition you will see that a kukkiwon certificate is needed to compete.
Someone else please chime in here.

 

[Archtkd]

But Kukki Taekwondo isn't Olympic TKD.... You seem to have difficulty understanding that. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic Taekwondo. The World Taekwondo Federation and the Kukkiwon are completely different things.

Said who? It's an interesting day when someone states that a Kukkiwon taekwondo 6th dan, certified international master instructor and certified coach does not know the difference between the Kukkiwon and WTF. The Kukkiwon and the WTF are joined at the hip; One (WTF) runs the sports side of things, the other (Kukkiwon) certfifies the folks who participate in the sport (sparring and poomsae) competition, and conducts high level training, research and development on the martial art/sport. Until not too long ago, the president of the WTF was also the president of the Kukkiwon. There could be some folks on this forum who hold dan certificates issued (that happened for a short time in the 1980s) by the WTF.

 

[msmitht]

Said who? It's an interesting day when someone states that a Kukkiwon taekwondo 6th dan, certified international master instructor and certified coach does not know the difference between the Kukkiwon and WTF. The Kukkiwon and the WTF are joined at the hip; One (WTF) runs the sports side of things, the other (Kukkiwon) certfifies the folks who participate in the sport (sparring and poomsae) competition, and conducts high level training, research and development on the martial art/sport. Until not too long ago, the president of the WTF was also the president of the Kukkiwon. There could be some folks on this forum who hold dan certificates issued (that happened for a short time in the 1980s) by the WTF.

Thank you

 

[MAist25]

Although they are joined at the hip, they are not the same. As you said, the WTF runs the sport side, and the Kukkiwon certifies, conducts training, research, etc. But the sport aspect is a very small aspect of what the overall Kukki style of Taekwondo is.

 

[msmitht]

Although they are joined at the hip, they are not the same. As you said, the WTF runs the sport side, and the Kukkiwon certifies, conducts training, research, etc. But the sport aspect is a very small aspect of what the overall Kukki style of Taekwondo is.

Really? I took a coaching/sport science course there. As a part of all 3 master instructor courses I have taken we had to know modern competition rules and regulations, how to train and coach/counsel students/athletes. The second one i took had specific sport drills for agility, power and reaction timing. On the Kukkiwon master instructors exam we had to answer questions regarding the WTF, GASIF and IOC.
Seems pretty sport oriented to me. Do you have to compete to be a part of kukkiwon? No. If you do who runs the event and sets the rules based on the techniques emphasized by the kukkiwon? The WTF!

 

[msmitht]

I would also recommend you read the current kukki textbooks. The second ones cover says "poomsae/demonstration/competition rules and interpretations/training of taekwondo players.You can find them at http://www.sangmoosa.com/shop/shop_goodsview.asp?Top=9&Steps=000090010800109&g_code=2008826145551

 

[MAist25]

Well of course if you were to attend the masters course, they would expect you to know this material, as it is one of the aspects of the overall style. However, like I said, it is only one aspect of the overall martial art. There are many instructors who are KKW masters who are very into the sport and competition. But there are also masters who emphasize the other aspects of TKD much more than the sport. As a matter of fact, one of the master instructors of my association, and one on GM Chun's senior instructors, who is a 6th Dan Kukkiwon certified master, has trained at the Kukkiwon many times where the sport aspect of TKD was not even addressed while he was training there. Does he have to know and understand the sport aspect? Yes, but at his school, there is very little emphasis placed on it. Kukki Taekwondo is much more than just "Olympic style TKD".

 

[MAist25]

"The essentials of Taewondo are demonstrated through breaking, self defense and Poomsae."

This a quote taken directly from the Kukkiwon website. I think it speaks for itself. Obviously "sport" is not mentioned as an essential aspect of Taekwondo.

 

[msmitht]

You do know that sparring is mandatory at kukkiwon Dan testing? So is Poomsae and they have had world championships for many years now. Both have rules set by....guess who? Breaking is the last main requirement to pass for poom and dan(past 5th you need a thesis). It is mostly used in demonstrations and for training.

 

[msmitht]

It is a large aspect. It is the national sport of south Korea. It is played in all school levels through college and they have a professional league. If they win a national championship they get a reduction in time between Dan levels!
Where did/do they all get their poom/Dan? The kukkiwon.

 

[MAist25]

Very interesting, is the same true for time in grade reduction if one were to win the world poomsae championship or a national poomsae competition?