Ygkym

[MacPedro]

Folks,
thought I'd throw this out there and see what kind of stimulating discussion came from it.

I know it's a film (part of the attraction to the target audience of any film is technical accuracy) but in "Ip Man The Legend is Born", the Leung Bik character portrayed by Ip Chun asks the Ip Man character if he has completed the Lower body strength training. This was the subtitle translation in English on the DVD I have. I can't quite make out if he says Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. He goes on to ask about targeted finger which I assume can only be Biu Gee.
Referring to the stance as the lower body strength training can give a different perception of the first form (although any link I am making comes only from my interpretion of the apothacary scene) my question (if I can stop talking in bracketed side notes for long enough to ask it

Is this a constructive/appropriate/useful way to think about the purpose of the form?

I've been getting strange hard lumpy bits on the backs of my legs I think it might be muscle as it's mirrored by the other leg.

Apologies for double post it was maybe covered when the film came out.

Regards,
MP

P.S. Not Wing Chun related but a good laugh all the same.

 

[yak sao]

Stance training is very much a part of SNT training. In keeping with the minamalist approach to WC, the founders gave us SNT as an all encompassing form to include stance training, basic structure training, mental focus, chi kung..........
That said, I believe the stance is the most neglected part of SNT.
Sure, you're in the stance while practicing the form, but it's easy to ignore the stance while focusing on what the hands are doing.
I try to make a point to be in the proper stance throughout the form. At the beginning, I don't begin the hands until I feel everything kind of lock into place. Then at every break,( where the hands are both back in double chambered positions) I re evaluate the stance to make sure I didn't get lazy with any of the components.

 

[geezer]

I just recently ran through this same topic on another forum... and have been focusing on this subject in my last couple of classes. I don't know about the movie (haven't caught that one yet), but in our branch of Ving Tsun (coming out of WT) the YGKYM / IRAS (Internal Rotation Adduction Stance) does indeed develop essential lower body and core strength in areas absolutely necessary to our back-weighted stepping. The combination of adduction and forward-rotated pelvis characteristic of the YGKYM, or "Character Two" stance as my old Chinese sifu used to call it, is in every stepping movement we do. It also adds power to both our kicks and punches, and even toughens our abdomens, making them more resistant to low centerline strikes. And that's just the beginning. I'm not even going to get into the whole chi-gung thing.

On that other forum I mentioned, I ran into some MMA fans who questioned this. One was a professional Physical Therapist or something, and had a terrrific understanding of human anatomy and it's function in a lot of sports. He knew all the Latin names for every muscle and bone. Unfortunately, he knew nothing about Wing Chun, especially the WT branches with our unusual back-weighted stances and steps.

By using an explosively applied adduction movement trained through the character two stance, we can step forward while maintaining our back-weighting. When our punches are synchronized with this forward pulse (that is the moment when the whole body jolts forward with the weighted rear foot) we can direct the force of our entire bodyweight from the ground up and out through our fist into our target... without rotating our shoulders or front-weighting like most other fighting arts. It is a terrific tool for the close range fighter. Of course these so-called experts on human physiology didn't get it. They argued that since boxers and Muay Thai fighters don't move like that, WC's kinetics are crazy. Crazy like a fox, I'd say, but nope, they didn't get it at all.

So I gave up. I don't have the patience to bandy about with those guys in a duel of words, when it's so easy to demonstrate these things physically. If they were shown it in person, they could see for themselves. Or maybe not. Remember when Galileo tried that with the church? Oh well...

 

[yak sao]

You say they don't get it because boxers don't move that way. Am I wrong, or did the old time bare knuckle boxers do just that?
There are times where I want to proclaim from the rooftops the sensibility and practicality of WC, then there are times when I get tired of trying to convince a bunch of idgits and would rather just let them wallow in their ignorance.

 

[BostonRedBaron]

Of course these so-called experts on human physiology didn't get it.

What if they are the experts and they are correct? Have you considered that they view you as close-minded to as you view them? They have an understanding of human anatomy, physiology, body mechanics, and your throwing theory at them.

we can direct the force of our entire body-weight from the ground up and out through our fist into our target... without rotating our shoulders or front-weighting like most other fighting arts.

Its not what you believe or what the theory claims, but what you have you tested empirically. i.e. compared pounds per square inch when you do and don't rotate the shoulders and hips like boxing/muay thai/mma. How much pounds per square inch does it take to render someone unconscious? Have you tested this first hand?

Am I wrong, or did the old time bare knuckle boxers do just that?

No. They didn't. I have heard that argument before. Asked some old time boxing coaches about that and it wasn't the case. In either way, its subjective as you cant prove nor disprove whether they did or not nor whether it was successful given how people fight today as you weren't there. So focus on something you can test and gauge results from.

There are times where I want to proclaim from the rooftops the sensibility and practicality of WC

That's more like it. Take a page from the Dogbrothers and give it a shot.

Personally, i have trained in both VT and boxing/muay thai, and tried to both against each system i have studied (among others). Have you tried both or just making assumptions? I spent 2 years at what is considered to be a very technical mma school and tested my skills against some of the instructors there. Asked some intelligent questions and adhered to a good test methodology of training. You might be surprised at the results.

 

[yak sao]

As for the power of a WT punch. I weigh 185#. I have knocked guys who weigh 260# plus, back on their arses, so the punch is powerful. That I don't need to argue or prove. I've seen it firsthand for myself, plus, I've had it done to me.

Nowhere have I ever proclaimed, or seen proclaimed that the WT punch is the most powerful punch in martial arts. What I do teach/proclaim, is what was taught to me. That the body mechanics of WT allow the average man or woman to deliver tremendous force in their strikes while at the same time being protected behind their arms and legs.

 

[BostonRedBaron]

Better. That's first hand knowledge. But knocked back and rendered unconscious is not the same. Front kicks regularly knock people back but not out. I have heard this often: "I've seen it work. I've made it work against other people in my organization. Its been done to me by my instructor." I take all of those with a grain of salt. Those are fine unit tests, but lets go beyond that to see when it fails. That's when testing gets interesting.

Unit Tests: Does it have sufficient speed/force to knock out an opponent (a non-resisting opponent)
Functional Tests: Does it have sufficient speed/force to knock out an opponent (a resisting opponent to some degree)
Use Case Tests: Does it have sufficient speed/force to knock out an opponent in various environments (ring, cage, street, different styles). Does the technique only work in certain use-cases?
Stress Tests: Continue to find faster, or larger or more experience, or different styles of opponent until you are no longer able to knock out opponent. When does it fail and examine results.
(The best example i can find of this is the Dogbrothers Open Gatherings. Invite any/all who wish to fight regardless of experience, age, gender, weight class, and style and fight record, and for no other reason than to test your skills in an adrenaline rush environment (stress test) to see what works and, more importantly, what fails. The only rules are those you make up with your sparring partner before the start of the fight. )

-REPEAT ALL TESTS OVER AND OVER TO ENSURE VALIDITY-- This is the staple of a good test methodology. Repeat your test results to ensure the initial results were not a fluke.

 

[mook jong man]

You don't need fancy tests , you can feel it .
Get someone to punch you in the shoulder with a horizontal fist from a side on stance , then get them to try it with a Wing Chun punch from the proper Wing Chun stance .

I guarantee that the Wing Chun punch will have a more penetrating quality , rather than exploding on the surface like the horizontal fist.

It is this "penetrating force" that does the damage , not necessarily the amount of force that can be measured in the strike by any sort of equipment.
The Wing Chun punch is powerful enough to do the job , but the most important quality of the Wing Chun punch is the way it's force penetrates the target.

 

[BostonRedBaron]

A punch on the shoulderGet someone to punch you in the shoulder with a horizontal fist from a side on stance , then get them to try it with a Wing Chun punch from the proper Wing Chun stance .

I am (was) an assistant instructor in wing chun both in Moy-Yat VT (started the dummy form) and WT (2nd level technician). So i have done those tests. Again, those are fine Unit Tests. But i have tested it in other areas to see what would happen (i.e boxing gloves, mma gloves, no gloves). The boxers struck with greater force, speed, snap, and penetration power. The kung fu punches pushed more (uprooted) but did less actual damage to internal organs. Uprooting does have its place in a fight if that is what the desired effect is. Best not to be surprised as to which strike has which effect when a fight really occurs.

You don't need fancy tests , you can feel it .

This is why i quit kung fu. Too many assumptions, not enough of that whole scientific, analytical process and good test methodology

Currently trying to write up an article/blog explaining how to properly test martial arts techniques using test methodology, as i am a Test Engineer. Most martial artists test with simple basic tests (Unit Tests) within their own system but then fail to go beyond that, especially against other stylists and environments. This is as much of a fault against TMA for failing to stress test their techniques against an adrenaline rush and other styles, as it is for MMA for failing to test against various environment (none cage/ring environments and rule-sets).
http://www.theredbaron.net/RedBaron/Reds_Blog/Reds_Blog.html

 

[mook jong man]

Wing Chun punches are not meant to be used with gloves on , it increases the surface area of the strike and spreads the force out , decreasing the usefulness at close range.

I would dispute the notion that the boxers punches have greater penetration in their strike, they may generate more overall force because they tend to strike further away from the target , but if the Wing Chun person knows what they are doing then the recipient of the punch should feel the punch deep inside the body.

My late Sifu always said "If you want to test out what your learning go down the pub and start a fight".

 

[geezer]

I'm with Mook when he says that you don't need fancy tests. I distrust a lot of "scientific" testing when there are so many variables involved. IMHO there is as much bad science out there as there is bad kung fu. I think BRB was more on target when he brought up Dogbrothers. You gotta respect that kind of testing.

As far as punching power, it's hard to match a good boxer. Both my Escrima coaches, Rene Latosa (PMAS system/Latosa Escrima Concepts) and and Martin Torres (Direct Torres Eskrima) were boxers. Both can hit with awesome power, long or short range. But it's a very different system using a different kinetic linking to generate the power. In Eskrima we use a push/drop step, forward weighting and body torque to add to our power.

In the VT/WT I've trained, we can still get body weight into our punches by synchronizing our centerline arm/elbow power with the forward jolt of our body as we step forward... in other words as we pull up that weighted rear foot. Think about it. When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves. So in a front-weighted stance, your punch hits hardest if you can synchronize it with your drop-step (read Dempsey on this). Conversely, in a back-weighted stance, you get the same effect by synching your punch with the rear foot. Now test it on a bag or an opponent holding a pad and see for yourself.

OK, now as to who can hit harder? I'd probably bet on the boxer. But who cares? I've seen good power generated a lot of ways. The classical Karate reverse-punch is quite powerful, but IMHO not so practical or efficient. With the VT/WT method, done right, you can generate a very heavy punch with very little movement. That's very useful.

Now can we get back on topic? I believe the OP concerned YGKYM and body strength. I only brought up punching as one of the factors affected by YGKYM. I'd hate to see the thread get derailed into a rehash of the old MMA vs WC nonsense!

 

[mook jong man]

There would be some strengthening of the legs involved with being in the stance , I'm sure we can all remember back to when we first started how much the quadriceps used to hurt.
But I think it is just a by product of the stance , if you really wanted to strengthen your legs you would practice the low horse stance used in the knife form.

I believe the primary function of the stance is to transmit the whole bodyweight of the practitioner into a focal point on the centreline , whether the strike is hand or leg it will be backed up by the entire weight of the body as long as it is focused to the centreline.

 

[MacPedro]

Geezer "...When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves..." Like the low bongs bit in Chum Kiu? Can I have the rest of Dempsey's name to search reading material please

MJM "...whether the strike is hand or leg it will be backed up by the entire weight of the body as long as it is focused to the centreline..." This is where all of our mass is concentrated, is this I wonder linked to WC/VT being a close style?


I'm off topic now meself
Pete

 

[mook jong man]

Geezer "...When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves..." Like the low bongs bit in Chum Kiu? Can I have the rest of Dempsey's name to search reading material please

MJM "...whether the strike is hand or leg it will be backed up by the entire weight of the body as long as it is focused to the centreline..." This is where all of our mass is concentrated, is this I wonder linked to WC/VT being a close style?


I'm off topic now meself
Pete

It is certainly linked to it being a close range style but it has more to do with the way that the knees and feet are focused towards the centerline .

 

[geezer]

Geezer "...When the weighted foot comes forward, that's when your bodyweight moves..." Like the low bongs bit in Chum Kiu? Can I have the rest of Dempsey's name to search reading material please --Pete

Yeah, just like the way you do the dai bong in Chum Kiu as you pull up the rear foot. Of course in WC/VT/WT you can punch at any time... your punches can't always be coordinated with breathing or stepping. They come too fast. It's just that when you can link everything together, you get a really strong punch.

BTW The book I was referring to is titled Championship Fighting by early 20th Century heavyweight boxing champion Jack Dempsey, copyright 1950. It's a short, easy read, and worthwhile too.

 

[MacPedro]

Guys,
MJM I'm gonna need about a quarter year to digest that, in the meantime I will of course take your word for it I've been given a new thing to think about for Christmas.

Geezer, I think I've found it with the info you've given thatnks
http://taichiworkout.net/jdbook.pdf

Pete

P.S. Is it acceptable to punch while stepping backwards in WC, if the circumstances dictate?

 

[mook jong man]

Guys,
MJM I'm gonna need about a quarter year to digest that, in the meantime I will of course take your word for it I've been given a new thing to think about for Christmas.

Geezer, I think I've found it with the info you've given thatnks
http://taichiworkout.net/jdbook.pdf

Pete

P.S. Is it acceptable to punch while stepping backwards in WC, if the circumstances dictate?

It is acceptable to punch while stepping backwards , but the planting of the back foot must be timed with the strike.
In chi sau if the opponent is rushing forward you can either pivot to redirect his forward momentum or you can take half a step back and absorb the force that way. As you step back drop your Fook sau down trapping both his hands and punch over the top with your other hand.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Okay, lets cut out some of the BS in this thread. The wing chun punch in general is a good punch and useful for smaller guys who want to deliver a powerful hit quickly. It is however, one hit of many. Ive been hit a few times from guys smaller than me from different WC organisations in compliant and non compliant drills. A lot of the time, the punch did not do much. That is just physics. IIts like trying to insist that a mini will be able to overturn a lorry by crashing into it. No matter how strong that little car is, it will struggle

That being said, I have known several masters who were able to deal an extraordinary amount of power using great body mechanics.

What people tend to forget is that although you may be able to produce power in a punch, you may still be susceptible to a counter. The low arch of a standard wing chun punch means that your opponent may dodge and catch you with an overhand right etc.

Dont rely on set applications or 'magic' training techniques to save you. Its great to build your stance and get a good foundation, but dont think that this alone will make you invincible

 

[geezer]

Okay, lets cut out some of the BS in this thread. The wing chun punch in general is a good punch and useful for smaller guys who want to deliver a powerful hit quickly. It is however, one hit of many.... Dont rely on set applications or 'magic' training techniques to save you. Its great to build your stance and get a good foundation, but dont think that this alone will make you invincible

See, I told you guys he was cantankerous! LOL

...but he's right as usual. Thanks Kamon... you keep the discussion honest.

 

[Vajramusti]

Wing Chun punches are not meant to be used with gloves on , it increases the surface area of the strike and spreads the force out , decreasing the usefulness at close range.

I would dispute the notion that the boxers punches have greater penetration in their strike, they may generate more overall force because they tend to strike further away from the target , but if the Wing Chun person knows what they are doing then the recipient of the punch should feel the punch deep inside the body.

My late Sifu always said "If you want to test out what your learning go down the pub and start a fight".

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Feeling, practicing and adjusting. One can do wing chun punches with gloves on.

joy