Xingyi Pi Fist Breaks Stance, Subvert the Logic of Standing Combat

If a book is moved across a table until if falls off, was its structure changed šŸ¤”
Depends.

  1. Is the book laying flat or on its edge?
  2. How tight or loose is the binding?
  3. Is it open on the pages or resting on the cover?
  4. Are you pushing with a flat hand or a focused point?
  5. What surface is it on—smooth or rough?
  6. Are you pushing on the spine or the pages?
  7. How heavy or light is the book?
The composition and position of an object determine the structure it can maintain under force.

If you move water across a table until it falls off, was its structure changed?

But a book isn't human.

A book doesn’t maintain its own balance. It doesn’t adjust. It just slides and then falls when it passes its base of support. A person is different because the body has to continuously adjust structure to maintain balance while being moved. The fact that a person doesn’t fall is the evidence that structural changes are happening. When structure fails "Breaks" that is when see the bigger outcome.

A human body isn’t passive—it maintains its balance through its structure. If the position of the body is being changed, then the structure that maintains that position is being affected, whether it’s obvious or not.

If you move a person lying on a table until he falls off, was the structure changed? The moment the finger presses into the skin is the exact moment structure has been changed.
 
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If you are physically being moved, then your structure is changing. If it's the water or the shifting of the sand under your feet, It's causing structural change.

With something as simple as an action figure, you can see that whenever the structure changes, the balance has to change too. Even small adjustments shift how the weight is distributed and what keeps it upright.

An action figure falls or tilts when structure changes.
A human body adjusts to prevent that from happening as the body's structure changes.
hmm it would likely feel like that in the bus example. if you relax in the ocean, good balance - let's say floating on it - then it moves you, the structure and balance feel the same. you are not "trying" to stand on a surface. you do not need to adjust (but you cannot "defend" being moved). versus in the bus, your structure and balance may be broken. you need to adjust. feeling "external" throws are a lot like this. someone tries to reap your leg, you move and counter. feeling "internal push" doesn't feel qualitatively like this at all. there is no "adjustment" (other than maybe "swimming" to make sure you do not lose "fangsong". in this sense having "too much structure" is maybe the issue - getting away from the analogies).
 
feeling "external" throws are a lot like this. someone tries to reap your leg, you move and counter. feeling "internal push" doesn't feel qualitatively like this at all. there is no "adjustment"
People try to use "internal" to put down external (I'm pure-blood and you are mud-blood). Do we truly have:

- "internal" punch?
- "internal" kick?
- "internal" throw?
- "internal" lock?

In MA, there is only the right way of doing thing and the wrong way of doing thing. There is no "internal" way of doing thing and external way of doing thing.

Do we really need to attach "internal" Infront of everything in order to be able to feel superior?
 
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no, we do not need any label or to imply any superiority from one thing or the other. just differences. a bad analogy is in mma, striker isn't necessarily superior to grappler or vice versa. if someone hits the grappler or the "internal" person, maybe "fight" is already over without any grappling or "internal" skills able to be done. this doesn't make the grappling or the "internal" or some jiu jitsu move not interesting. these things are interesting on their own.
 
Do we really need to attach "internal" Infront of everything in order to be able to feel superior?

Seems to be an assumption on your part.

No one that I know — or have met — felt this way.

The terminology was used to differentiate methods and expected outcomes.

As mentioned before, the distinction developed within a Chinese cultural context that carried its own ideas about the body, force, health, and training. By virtue of the culture that developed them, these methods were shaped by a different worldview of how the human body works and how skill is developed.


All methods developed in China are internal
The terminology is used to differentiate methods and expected outcomes.
 
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All methods developed in China are internal
The terminology was used to differentiate methods and expected outcomes.

by virtue of the culture that developed them — having a different worldview of how the human body is thought to work.

While all arts, including MA, develop in a cultural context, that context may not always be entirely conducive to effective self-defense.

Philosophical concepts, for example, may work their way in, the result being the MA is molded to fit those concepts, sort of like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I've read that the concept of internal/external in CMA is fairly recent (1800's), partly influenced by these non-martial ideas seeking to be integrated into MA, what physicists might call a "theory of everything." But like relativity or quantum, I find the concepts take too much work to process.

Another example may be basing the empty hand art on polearm or long bladed weapon art. There may be some overlap in tactics, but the nature of the techniques may not be effectively transferable.

It's natural that the longer a thing exists, the more it accumulates. While in real estate I noticed that homes where a family had lived for a couple of generations often became crowded with furniture, decorations and bric-a-brac or too many layers of wallpaper or paint. Some may still be useful; some having outlived their usefulness. Once in a while a good housecleaning is beneficial. But old things/traditions/heirlooms are difficult to shed - they have become part of the beloved home.

Even if there is validity to a concept, over time the language used to describe/explain it can grow unwieldly or a bit confusing (providing good debate on posts here). It shouldn't take too many words to describe a MA concept. Stories passed down over time often grow with each telling, the basic storyline becoming more involved than needed.

I honestly don't know to what extent these kinds of things play a part in CMA but suspect they do to some degree. Even karate, originally quite focused with little philosophical introspection, has accumulated some "baggage" as it evolved into "karate-do" mostly post WWll, seeking other goals than simply self-defense. Regardless of how much we embrace all that has been injected into the art, I think some thought on the matter is beneficial.
 
I honestly don't know to what extent these kinds of things play a part in CMA but suspect they do to some degree.

It matters, and it is actively discussed within the community.

Different teachers often comment according to their own level of development and experience. As a result, practitioners can arrive at very different conclusions while studying the same art.

Even long-time practitioners sometimes discover there are aspects of the art that cannot be reached through their current training methods.

A well-known example is the first meeting between Wei Shuren and Wang Yongquan:

"In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face. He had not expected this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what Master Wang had demonstrated on him. So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang."

Master Wang, did not talk about his art or method, he allowed Wei to feel it...
Wei would later write a book attempting to explain the theory. Interestingly, even many native Chinese speakers who read it have difficulty understanding what he is describing without the experience that gives the words meaning.
 
This example doesn’t demonstrate a ā€œbroken structureā€ in the usual mechanical sense. It shows a compromised or less efficient structure, not a collapsed one.

In biomechanics or martial contexts, ā€œstructure breakingā€ usually means:
  • The alignment can no longer support load efficiently
  • The person can’t transmit force through their body
  • Their posture is unstable or collapses under pressure

But in the example:
  • The person is still upright
  • Their joints are still stacked well enough to function
  • They can still resist force—just less effectively
In your example the structure is altered or degraded, not broken

Balance shifts as the structure changes with the arm extended, and it shifts again as force is applied.

How balance responds​

Your body subtly compensates by:
  • Activating stabilizer muscles in the core, back, and legs. This is the body adjusting to maintain balance, because when structure changes, balance changes as well.
  • Making tiny shifts (often invisible) in weight distribution through your feet
  • Adjusting spinal alignment to keep the center of mass over your base
Has the Borg taken you over completely? This is suspiciously sounding generated by AI or chat gpt. 😁
 
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Internal..has many different possible meaning

BOXING METHODS OF THE INTERNAL SCHOOL (NEI JIA QUAN FA)

It is possible that the term Internal Martial Arts did not appear until 1669 in the "Epitaph of Wang Zhengnan" and Taijiquan, Bagauzhang and Xingyiquan, were not even mentioned. Bottomline is no one knows what art Wang Zhengnan practiced. There is also the possibility that the epitaph was more of a political statement against the Qing. The Qing being external to Han China. Also though posibly to be a division between Buddhism, external to China and Taoism, internal to China

Another story goes to Chan Fake 陳發科; Ch'en Fa-k'e; 1887–1957. There was a internal Martial Arts competition in Beijing and Chen Fake's students were upset that they were not invited and approached Chen about it. He said he had no idea about internal or external, and did not seem to much care, only cared that he trained his families martial arts.

First historically agreed upon Taijiquan style is Chen and it originates from Chen Wangting (1580 - 1660) and since the term internal does not appear until 1669, it is doubtful that Chen Wangting thought of it as internal, or that there was even a division between internal vs external at the time

The big 3 styles are Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiquan. Also considered internal by many; Liuhebafa and Yiquan/Dachengquan

Now I have trained a lot of Taijiquan and a bit of Baguazhang, a touch of Yiquan and a lot of Xingyiquan. And, at least for me, what is ironic about this thread, is that the OP posted a video about Xingyiquan which in my experince is the style least concerned about internal and external... I have even seen XIngyiquan catagorized and Internal/External.....but then I have not trained with every xingyiquan shifu on the planet.... others milage may vary.... but in my experience, Xingyiquan has been more : "Shut up a train" kind of style.

Also a bit of Irony, I trained a bit of Sanda, not the stuff you see in the ring, but the stuff they teach the Chinese police, and the teacher, knew I was a taijiquan person and every one of his explanations he sought to distance himself from anything that could be thought of as "Internal". the Irony comes in when virtually everything he said about power/strength was the same as the internal concept of power comes from the root and is directed by the waist... he just used different words

And lastly, and old Chinese saying..... if trained properly, internal goes to external and external goes to internal...over time, they end up in the same place

As for me.... internal, external.... don't think about it much..... they are words that one should not get hung up on... then the old xingyiquan motto kicks in....shut up and train....
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it is possible that the term Internal Martial Arts did not appear until 1669
From my readings as well, "internal" MA was not a thing till the 1700's. Prior to this, Shaolin was primarily a weapon-based (pole arms such as spear) school and engaged in warfare against the Qing. I imagine that the battlefield would favor an "external" methodology, the life and death environment encouraging a more physical, less philosophical practicality. After this time, empty hand (civilian) combat began to more fully develop as a Shaolin art. It's logical to think the Shaolin boxing style would follow the same path as their weapon style (from which it was at least partly derived?).

This is also the time that many monks migrated to the South and its relative peace. This afforded the opportunity to delve more into the integration of philosophical concepts and their MA, as well as setting the stage for further diversifying CMA into numerous styles, including the notion of internal/external as the various schools sought to establish their own identity and approach.

Something similar happened to Okinawan karate in the first half of the 1900's where the Shuri and Naha methods branched into numerous styles, some eventually embracing Zen philosophy and Samurai mentality. Both CMA and OMA were largely molded by historical and cultural factors to be what they are today.

TMA is full of legend and many bits of (sometimes debatable) facts and views that make it an interesting subject. But if we step back from this and look at the bigger picture of the world they evolved in, a whole new dimension of understanding and appreciation opens up.
 
As for me.... internal, external.... don't think about it much..... they are words that one should not get hung up on... then the old xingyiquan motto kicks in....shut up and train....
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On a discussion board? šŸ¤”


Discussion being kinda the point.


Whether one chooses to use the terms ā€œinternalā€ and ā€œexternalā€ is secondary. The real question is whether there are differences in method, training, and outcome that justify the distinction in the first place.

There also seems to be a feeling that some use the word ā€œinternalā€ simply to make their training appear different from others. I’ve never really understood that argument, as all Chinese martial arts can be said to have internal components.

Most have specific training methods that address this aspect. The difference is that their overall methodology is not built around it as the primary means of development.

The more interesting question is not whether something contains internal training, but how that training is integrated, what role it plays in the system, and what skills it ultimately develops.


Teacher Pang, in the OP, makes this distinction to showcase the methods and theories he uses. Whether one agrees with his conclusions or not, he is presenting a particular approach and inviting comparison with other methods and training models.

I should mention that Teacher Pang and I have corresponded over the years. I find his work interesting, some aspects of his exploration parallel some of my own.
 
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The real question is whether there are differences in method, training, and outcome that justify the distinction in the first place.
The more I learn about TMA, the more confused I am about internal and external concepts. Internal is usually described as qi-based, stressing the importance of breathing, circular flowing technique, structure, biomechanics, intention, relaxation, rooting, evading or redirecting force, etc. Leaving qi aside for the moment, all of these are certainly found in external karate as well, some being very pervasive and important in that art. Surely intent, structure, managing breath, and biomechanics are central to karate as well. Stance and hips are also important in both.

External is often described as muscular power oriented, tense, linear and directly opposing force. IMO, these are half-truths (except for those who follow an exaggerated version as found in a few karate styles). So, if the core concepts are common in both internal and external, what is the difference?

The training methodology may be different, one stressing some of the above-described attributes more than others. And how they are described using language that reflects their art's world view is different. Stylistically, they look different as well. But is this enough to "justify the distinction?"

What I see as the major difference is the method of power delivery. At least this is what stands out to me. Many internal CMA strikes appear to me to be constant throughout their path, from origin in the core to contact, the force being consistently applied, like a flowing river. In traditional (Okinawan mainly) karate, the force is variable, the strike explosively launched from the core, loosely travelling to the target, then tensing (along with the body) on contact with the target. It's more like the snap of a whip than a flowing river. We call this chinkuchi.

Whether this is a main important, concrete differences between internal and external I don't know. But it may be the most visible. Your comments?

Now, as to qi/chi being central to whether an art is internal or external: While this is certainly stressed and talked about more in regard to internal arts, I believe it is the same thing in external arts. IMO it is just a word used to describe several synergistic concepts, given a spiritual/philosophical slant in the internal arts and a more physical slant in external. No matter how it's described, I think the end result is the same in both.
 
External is often described as muscular power oriented, tense, linear and directly opposing force. IMO, these are half-truths (except for those who follow an exaggerated version as found in a few karate styles). So, if the core concepts are common in both internal and external, what is the difference?

The core concepts are not the same. If they were, there would be little reason for the distinction in the first place.

There is an old saying in Chinese martial arts:

å¤–ē»ƒē­‹éŖØēš®ļ¼Œå†…ē»ƒäø€å£ę°”
WĆ i liĆ n jÄ«n gĒ” pĆ­, nĆØi liĆ n yÄ« kĒ’u qƬ.

"Externally train the tendons, bones, and skin; internally train the qi."

Distinctions in Training

External (外)
ē­‹ (jÄ«n) — tendon
éŖØ (gĒ”) — bone
皮 (pĆ­) — skin

Internal (内)
ꄏ (yƬ) — intention / mind
ę°£ (qƬ) — inner energy / vital force
ē„ž (shĆ©n) — spirit

Both train the same body, but they begin from different assumptions and use different methods to develop different qualities. Those qualities, in turn, influence how the techniques are expressed.

This is why people ask whether there is an "internal punch," "internal kick," or "internal throw." Not understanding the technique itself is not internal or external. It is an expression of the method used to develop it.

Some methods are avoided—or performed quite differently—because they violate the core principles upon which that method is based.

Historically the Muscle/Tendon Change Classic (ę˜“ē­‹ē», YƬ JÄ«n JÄ«ng) is traditionally associated with developing the body's physical qualities the Marrow/Brain Washing Classic (ę“—é«“ē», Xǐ Suǐ JÄ«ng), with cultivating the body's internal qualities.

The training methodology may be different, one stressing some of the above-described attributes more than others. And how they are described using language that reflects their art's world view is different. Stylistically, they look different as well. But is this enough to "justify the distinction?"

The distinction is important to those within the practice who are seeking to deepen their own understanding. Outside of that, it matters very little.

Notice how demonstrations of these skill sets are often questioned or dismissed by those who have not trained the methods being shown. That, in itself, suggests the distinction is meaningful within the practice, even if it appears unimportant from the outside.

Whether one accepts the terminology is secondary. The methods, training, and resulting skills are what ultimately justify the distinction.


What I see as the major difference is the method of power delivery. At least this is what stands out to me. Many internal CMA strikes appear to me to be constant throughout their path, from origin in the core to contact, the force being consistently applied, like a flowing river. In traditional (Okinawan mainly) karate, the force is variable, the strike explosively launched from the core, loosely travelling to the target, then tensing (along with the body) on contact with the target. It's more like the snap of a whip than a flowing river. We call this chinkuchi.

Whether this is a main important, concrete differences between internal and external I don't know. But it may be the most visible. Your comments?
Interesting concept...

ChatGPT: "While there is overlap, internal chinkuchi is generally described as an internal organization of the body that produces efficient whole-body connection and power transmission. Taiji internal training, particularly as described in the classical literature, typically places greater emphasis on relaxation (ę¾), listening (听劲), intention (ꄏ), sensitivity, balance, and whole-body integration as the foundation for movement and power.

Although both traditions seek unified body mechanics, Taiji generally treats internal organization as part of a broader process involving perception, adaptation, and interaction, rather than focusing primarily on the expression of force."

To really answer that question, one would first have to reproduce or experience the kinds of demonstrations that are often questioned. Without that, it is difficult to know whether the observed differences are merely stylistic or the result of fundamentally different methods of training.
 
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The [chinese] outer and inner schools original refers to alchemy where Waidan(outer method ) is the oldest, waidan focused on producing elixir to ingest in hope of obtaining longevity or even immortality, however not seldom illness or even near immediate death was the result.
In the 1100 century the concept of inner alchemy -Neidan - had been established , now the body was the furnace in which the elixir was to be produced by the components o mind and breath .
As for martial arts, the inner school is not as so many seems to want it to be as some sort of physical power generation epitome.
Of the three main internal schools of Chinese martial arts Xingyiquan is the oldest, its original name being Xinyiquan - Heart/Intent(mind) - clearly suggesting a focus and expression beyond and deeper than pure body mechanics .
 
The more I learn about TMA, the more confused I am about internal and external concepts. Internal is usually described as qi-based, stressing the importance of breathing, circular flowing technique, structure, biomechanics, intention, relaxation, rooting, evading or redirecting force, etc. Leaving qi aside for the moment, all of these are certainly found in external karate as well, some being very pervasive and important in that art. Surely intent, structure, managing breath, and biomechanics are central to karate as well. Stance and hips are also important in both.

External is often described as muscular power oriented, tense, linear and directly opposing force. IMO, these are half-truths (except for those who follow an exaggerated version as found in a few karate styles). So, if the core concepts are common in both internal and external, what is the difference?

The training methodology may be different, one stressing some of the above-described attributes more than others. And how they are described using language that reflects their art's world view is different. Stylistically, they look different as well. But is this enough to "justify the distinction?"

What I see as the major difference is the method of power delivery. At least this is what stands out to me. Many internal CMA strikes appear to me to be constant throughout their path, from origin in the core to contact, the force being consistently applied, like a flowing river. In traditional (Okinawan mainly) karate, the force is variable, the strike explosively launched from the core, loosely travelling to the target, then tensing (along with the body) on contact with the target. It's more like the snap of a whip than a flowing river. We call this chinkuchi.

Whether this is a main important, concrete differences between internal and external I don't know. But it may be the most visible. Your comments?

Now, as to qi/chi being central to whether an art is internal or external: While this is certainly stressed and talked about more in regard to internal arts, I believe it is the same thing in external arts. IMO it is just a word used to describe several synergistic concepts, given a spiritual/philosophical slant in the internal arts and a more physical slant in external. No matter how it's described, I think the end result is the same in both.
There are so many iterations, methods and variations on Chinese martial arts it makes the term CMA extremely vague. I think before a truly meaningful discussion on internal vs external can be had, an agreement on terms and definitions should be had amongst the participants. I have watched this topic spiral quickly as a result of miscommunication previously when the participants weren’t as civil as our present company.
 
IMO most people who can demonstrate a high level of physical skill are doing a lot of the same things to achieve an athletic success regardless of style, technique, training methodology, or cultural context. Good posture, balance, and coordination are the necessary foundational qualities required for any athletic endeavor to be successful at any high, let alone elite level. The distinction between internal and external methods has very little to do with philosophy, yet some philosophy is often present in both. There is more to it than power generation methods. It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest there is no difference in the two, though I agree that at high levels athletes/ martial artists may normalize many of these concepts without having certain terminology or ever having trained them specifically. That said, it is the height of arrogance to think we have seen everything under the sun. Not so long ago there was a bird called a dodo, but you won’t find a video of it, nor anyone alive that has seen one.
 
discussion on internal vs external can be had,
What's the combat usage of "push"? When a Taiji guy "pushes" his opponent away, does the Taiji guy punch his opponent, or throw his opponent?

- A punch is 1 point contact.
- A throw is 2/3 points contact.
- A "push" is 1 point contact which neither belong to punch nor throw.

"Internal" MA system such as Taiji created the term "push". This makes the MA discussion difficult and confused. By discussing "push" only, Taiji can avoid discussing kick/punch/lock/throw. This gradually move Taiji further away from the combat reality.
 
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Has the Borg taken you over completely? This is suspiciously sounding generated by AI or chat gpt. 😁
The points and context are all mine. As you know I'm wordy person, so I had Ai to shorten my original writing so that it's easier for others to read. But if you miss my super long posts then I'll be more than happy to send people down that path again.
 
What's the combat usage of "push"? When a Taiji guy "pushes" his opponent away, does the Taiji guy punch his opponent, or throw his opponent?

- A punch is 1 point contact.
- A throw is 2/3 points contact.
- A "push" is 1 point contact which neither belong to punch nor throw.

"Internal" MA system such as Taiji created the term "push". This makes the MA discussion difficult and confused. By discussing "push" only, Taiji can avoid discussing kick/punch/lock/throw. This gradually move Taiji further away from the combat reality.
Push is an extra tool in the taiji-toolbox already containing strikes and throws, the push can also be converted to strike, as karate’s double ox-jaw strike - morote selryuto-uchi
 
What's the combat usage of "push"? When a Taiji guy "pushes" his opponent away, does the Taiji guy punch his opponent, or throw his opponent?

- A punch is 1 point contact.
- A throw is 2/3 points contact.
- A "push" is 1 point contact which neither belong to punch nor throw.

"Internal" MA system such as Taiji created the term "push". This makes the MA discussion difficult and confused. By discussing "push" only, Taiji can avoid discussing kick/punch/lock/throw. This gradually move Taiji further away from the combat reality.
why do you always focus on push? there is a whole lot more about taijiquan as a martial art than push.... but to discuss further would likely offend you so I will stop here.....
 
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