Gen Choi honorary BB only?

exile

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If you do find the later version of that paper I can host it on atacards if we don't have other spots for it.

I will try, Dave. I'm quite certain I saved it, knowing how fragile these links can be.

To be able to go back and be a fly on the wall...

Aye, I've often thought about that. If we only knew the real story,.... hmm... maybe we don't wanna know, come to think of it...

Will do some thrashing around in my old directories and see what I can see...
 

exile

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Mystery solvedand this time, it's not Lisa's fault at all (and I'm not just saying that because of my, um, admiration for Chew's endless rows of ... razor-sharp canine teeth... are dogs supposed to even have that many teeth?... good, nice doggy!... Nice uncle Exile is going to take all the blame...)

... basically, I misspelled the URL address. Dumber than that you cannot get. The actual link to the Burdick 2000 paper is here:

http://www.budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html

Lemme try it... Yup, it works!!
 

exile

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Wow!! Thanks for all the responses guys, NOW it makes sense!

You're very welcome, Lauren. It gets pretty tangled, for sure. There was a lot of organizational rivalry and faction-fighting in the KMAs back then... in a way that doesn't seem to have been duplicated elsewhere in Asia... I've never understood why to my own satisfaction, although there's been a lot of discussio of it and I have a few ideas....

Thanks exile!
Saving that locally as well :D

Good idea! After all, who knowstomorrow that site might really be down permanently... the one problem with the Web: it's like this vast encyclopaedia where whole pages disappear without warning....
 

rmclain

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Ack, it was Nam Tae Hi, not Lee Nam Suk. My bad. I'm getting better with those but, shesh why didn't they have this kind of history instead of Western Civ in college ;).

Not sure Exile, I did find it some time ago, great great read.
Btw, that link is dead, here's a backup:
http://www.dmafitness.com/tkd/tkdhist.htm


I wouldn't worry about history/name messups. Most of the second generation instructors in Korea (following WWII) didn't know the background of their art. Over the past 10 years, people are now beginning to really research and find the background and history.

Beginning in the late 1960's or early 1970's, Lee Nam-sok became a part of General Choi's organization in some capacity - though I don't know what. Lee Nam-sok, really quit training in the 1960's and became some sort of businessman. General Choi brought Lee Nam-sok to try an recruit my instructor, GM Kim Pyung-soo, into the ITF in 1973. General Choi figured since Lee Nam-sok was GM Kim's first instructor (1952), this would be a good way to persuade him to join. He also brought a nice piece of caligraphy he made himself as a gift. GM Kim turned him down.

Considering the karate forms included in General Choi's 1965 TKD book (if he actually knew the forms) it looks as though he obtained some Dan-level grade in karate. But, there is also the possibility that he obtained those from the Chungdo-kwan, then wrote the book.

R. McLain
 

exile

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I wouldn't worry about history/name messups. Most of the second generation instructors in Korea (following WWII) didn't know the background of their art. Over the past 10 years, people are now beginning to really research and find the background and history.

Beginning in the late 1960's or early 1970's, Lee Nam-sok became a part of General Choi's organization in some capacity - though I don't know what. Lee Nam-sok, really quit training in the 1960's and became some sort of businessman. General Choi brought Lee Nam-sok to try an recruit my instructor, GM Kim Pyung-soo, into the ITF in 1973. General Choi figured since Lee Nam-sok was GM Kim's first instructor (1952), this would be a good way to persuade him to join. He also brought a nice piece of caligraphy he made himself as a gift. GM Kim turned him down.

Considering the karate forms included in General Choi's 1965 TKD book (if he actually knew the forms) it looks as though he obtained some Dan-level grade in karate. But, there is also the possibility that he obtained those from the Chungdo-kwan, then wrote the book.

R. McLain

You're alluding to the material from your interview with Gm. Kim... I found that interview an incredible eye-opener. It's funny how Gen. Choi changed his story about the role of karate in TKD, given that, as you say, in the 1960s he was actually still practicing a strongly karate-based version of KMA, and in interviews in Combat magazine candidly acknowledged that it was essential in the formation of TKD. By the time we get to the 1980s, he's contradicting himself all over the place on that. And as Gm. Kim points out, all that stuff he started telling people about Tae kyon and its role in TKD came way, way after the Kwan era phase of TKD's development...

I think anyone who's interested in the historical development of TKD/TSD (as opposed to the Disneyesque legendary fantasy stories that get recycled ad nauseum in the obligatory twopage summary of TKD `history' in the front of most textbooks and training manuals for the art) should carefully read that interview, posted in our own MT Martial Arts magazine (see `Korean Karate History: Why All the Confusion?') It gives a very different, much grittier picture of what was really going on at the time...
 

zDom

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Ack, it was Nam Tae Hi, not Lee Nam Suk.

Ahhhh Nam Tae Hi :)

An extremely talented TKD master I owe my kicking technique to, GM Jeff Forby of Illinois, hooked up with GM Hi, so I understand.

Is GM Hi still with the ITF? I meant to Google him, haven't got around to it.
 

TraditionalTKD

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Gen. Choi was a 2nd Dan in Shotokan, although there are no official records of his training by the JKA. He did indeed hold the position of Kwan Jang of Chung Do Kwan for a short time, as Won Kuk Lee apparently respected him, and it was a tumultuous period in CDK as GGM Lee was on the verge of retiring and several of the students were jockeying to be his successor.
He did not, however, ever hold an official rank from CDK or any of the Kwans at that time. He did go on to found Oh Do Kwan with Tae Hi Nam, but that was composed mainly of CDK students who were in the military.
Short of it:
Shotokan black belt
Honorary President of Chung Do Kwan (short time)
Never official black belt in CDK
Given honorary Dan rank in Chung Do Kwan
Rescinded by Duk Sung Son
Founded Oh Do Kwan w/Chung Do Kwan Dan holders.
Personal opinion: Politically important, but not as an Instructor.
Would not have achieved nearly as much success without Won Kuk Lee and Chung Do Kwan.
 

jim777

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So...is the seeming bias against Shotokan simply because it is modern (20th Century, anyway) and Japanese? Or am I sensing a bias that isn't really there?
I ask because I never really knew or even wondered about the history of TKD before starting it myself, but I have brothers who hold Dan rank in Shotokan and I have a lot of respect for their ability, the style, and their instructor (2nd generation from Funakoshi). To me, an association with Shotokan, or shared roots with Shotokan at any rate is a plus. When I first read (here, I'm sure of it) that TKD and Shotokan were similar to some degree I was pretty pleased to hear it :) Anyway, not trying to muddy the waters, I was just wondering what people's opinions were for the aparent short shrifting of Shotokan in the various "official" TKD histories. I assume it is at least partly due to anti-Japanese sentiment by the men who had lived under Japanese occupation.
 

exile

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So...is the seeming bias against Shotokan simply because it is modern (20th Century, anyway) and Japanese? Or am I sensing a bias that isn't really there?
I ask because I never really knew or even wondered about the history of TKD before starting it myself, but I have brothers who hold Dan rank in Shotokan and I have a lot of respect for their ability, the style, and their instructor (2nd generation from Funakoshi). To me, an association with Shotokan, or shared roots with Shotokan at any rate is a plus.

I agree. My TKD lineage comes down from Song Moo Kwan, which translates `Pine Tree (Martial) Training Hall'almost a literal translation of Shotokan (`Shoto', Gichin Funakoshi's nom de plume, means `waving pines', and `kan' is `house/hall')which tells you how much Byung Jik Ro, the Kwan's founder, took seriously his karate training.

When I first read (here, I'm sure of it) that TKD and Shotokan were similar to some degree I was pretty pleased to hear it :) Anyway, not trying to muddy the waters, I was just wondering what people's opinions were for the aparent short shrifting of Shotokan in the various "official" TKD histories. I assume it is at least partly due to anti-Japanese sentiment by the men who had lived under Japanese occupation.

I think that that is the story almost completely. You might want to take a look at MartialTalk's MT magazine interview by Robert Mclain, at http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43720; you'll get some sense of how the hostility of the Koreans to the Japanese as a result of the hideously brutal Occupation led to this wholesale denial of the Shotokan/Shudokan foundation of modern striking KMAs. The resentment was absolutely justified, and still is, IMO, given the attitudes of the Japanese government to their crimes in Korea and elsewhere in Asia in the prewar and wartime era. But the distortion of MA history that has resulted has done nothing but harm to our understanding of TKD and its technical content.
 

GlassJaw

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I agree. My TKD lineage comes down from Song Moo Kwan, which translates `Pine Tree (Martial) Training Hall'almost a literal translation of Shotokan (`Shoto', Gichin Funakoshi's nom de plume, means `waving pines', and `kan' is `house/hall')which tells you how much Byung Jik Ro, the Kwan's founder, took seriously his karate training.

And he wasn't the only kwan founder who acknowledged a connection to karate. As I understand it (from the 'net..so it must be true, right?), when Grandmaster Lee Won Kuk, who studied Shotokan karate in Japan directly under Funakoshi Sensei, opened his gym in Korea, he based the name on Shotokan.

The Chinese characters used in Japan to write "shotokan" would be pronounced "sung-do-kwan" by Korean. But since Korean custom discourages giving a child the name of a living relative, he altered it slightly to "chung do kwan" (blue wave(way?) school).

And the sign on the door advertised "T'ang boxing art" using the same Chinese characters as displayed on dojos in Japan. Only difference is that the Japanese pronounce the characters as "ka ra te" and the Koreans pronounce them as "tang soo do". Funakoshi Sensei later redefined the meaning of "karate" from "T'ang fist" to "empty fist". (Again, I'm just passing on stuff I read on the Web, so weight it accordingly. I cannot speak any of those three languages, much less write them, so I can't verify any of this.)

My guess is that GM Choi (at the time of his policy questioned in an earlier post) regarded the CDK as a legitimate Korean source of Shotokan training. He was familiar enough with the quality and curriculum of CDK training that he felt he could accept CDK black belt credentials without the need for review. Black belts from "unaccredited" kwans, expecially those which were not strongly based in Shotokan, needed to demonstrate their proficiency and knowledge.

Dan
 

exile

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And he wasn't the only kwan founder who acknowledged a connection to karate. As I understand it (from the 'net..so it must be true, right?), when Grandmaster Lee Won Kuk, who studied Shotokan karate in Japan directly under Funakoshi Sensei, opened his gym in Korea, he based the name on Shotokan.

The Chinese characters used in Japan to write "shotokan" would be pronounced "sung-do-kwan" by Korean. But since Korean custom discourages giving a child the name of a living relative, he altered it slightly to "chung do kwan" (blue wave(way?) school).

That is very interesting, GJI'd never heard that account of the origins of the CDK name...

And the sign on the door advertised "T'ang boxing art" using the same Chinese characters as displayed on dojos in Japan. Only difference is that the Japanese pronounce the characters as "ka ra te" and the Koreans pronounce them as "tang soo do". Funakoshi Sensei later redefined the meaning of "karate" from "T'ang fist" to "empty fist". (Again, I'm just passing on stuff I read on the Web, so weight it accordingly. I cannot speak any of those three languages, much less write them, so I can't verify any of this.)

The history you're describing has been verified a million different times by people with ample linguistic/orthographic expertise in the Chinese, Korean and Japanese. There's no question: kongsudo/tangsudo are the two different translations corresponding respectively to the two different transliterations of the compound `kara te' in Japanese.

My guess is that GM Choi (at the time of his policy questioned in an earlier post) regarded the CDK as a legitimate Korean source of Shotokan training. He was familiar enough with the quality and curriculum of CDK training that he felt he could accept CDK black belt credentials without the need for review. Black belts from "unaccredited" kwans, expecially those which were not strongly based in Shotokan, needed to demonstrate their proficiency and knowledge.

Dan

Makes sense. And it ties in very nicely with his revisionist approach to the history of TKD over time: starting as a self-identified karateka, he wound up in 1990s denying that Shotokan had anything to do with TKD (in an interview in the UK publication Combat). All those later, apparently fabricated stories about taekkyon and how important they were to the MA he devised and named Taekwondo seem to have come from the 1970s and later; the fact is, there was virtually no one in the areas where Gen. Choi grew up who did taekkyon, and even around Seoul, where the foot-wrestling game that taekkyon appears to have been was almost entirely concentrated, there was virtually no one doing it by the early 1950s. Some good, solid documentation for all these points is the paper by Steve Capener at http://www.bluewavetkd.com/images/GoalSheets/capeneressay.pdf
 
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