1960's 9 Gwan/Kwan/Gyms united to create Taekwondo in relation to Pasa-Gwonbeop & Karate

Dirty Dog

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Pedantic and nitpicking and quibbling.

By which you mean "I wrong but I'm never going to admit it", right?

Korean Gwonbeop was not extinct 100 years ago.

Well, yes. It was.

Also, I don't care if Byungin Yoon taught Chinese Quan Fa (Gwonbeop). It's a definite possibility. I accept it although my main belief is that he learned and taught Korean Gwonbeop. But Taekwondo topic is over. He taught Quan Fa. Over.

Nope. You're wrong. He taught Kung Fu, then he joined the unification movement and taught... yup.... that's right... Tae Kwon Do.

Which is primarily (almost exclusively) derived from.... Karate. Specifically Shotokan Karate.
 

Xue Sheng

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Just for the record, Karate pre-existed Mas Oyama in Japan and in Okinawa

Kanga Sakugawa, also Sakugawa Satunushi and Tode Sakugawa,(3-5-1733 to 7-7-1815) was a Ry贖ky贖an martial arts master and major contributor to the development of Te, the precursor to modern Karate.

Matsumura Skon was one of the original karate masters of Okinawa. (1809-1899)

Ank Itosu is considered by many the father of modern karate (1831 to 3-11-1915)

Gichin Funakoshi (11-10-1868 to 4-26-1957) is the founder of Shotokan Karate-Do

Masutatsu yama, (7-27-1923 to 4-26-1994)founded Kyokushin Karate
 
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Steven Lee

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No, it means I don't care quoting in my classic typical way instead of using the forum function.

No, Gwonbeop wasn't extinct. Mas Oyama talked about Korean Gwonbeop existing in his book. I quoted a magazine which quoted his book.

I believe Byungin Yoon knew Korean Gwonbeop cause he taught the name Gwonbeop and he was nicknamed Gyungnong 18ki. You have no proof for what you wish, but I don't care cause it is indeed possible that Byungin Yoon taught Quan Fa, not 18ki Gwonbeop. (Weird for his nickname to be 18ki then.)

I said Mas Oyama added Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate.
 

Xue Sheng

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No, it means I don't care quoting in my classic typical way instead of using the forum function.

No, Gwonbeop wasn't extinct. Mas Oyama talked about Korean Gwonbeop existing in his book. I quoted a magazine which quoted his book.

I believe Byungin Yoon knew Korean Gwonbeop cause he taught the name Gwonbeop and he was nicknamed Gyungnong 18ki. You have no proof for what you wish, but I don't care cause it is indeed possible that Byungin Yoon taught Quan Fa, not 18ki Gwonbeop. (Weird for his nickname to be 18ki then.)

I said Mas Oyama added Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate.

Just for the record, Karate pre-existed Mas Oyama in Japan and in Okinawa

Kanga Sakugawa, also Sakugawa Satunushi and Tode Sakugawa,(3-5-1733 to 7-7-1815) was a Ry贖ky贖an martial arts master and major contributor to the development of Te, the precursor to modern Karate.

Matsumura Skon was one of the original karate masters of Okinawa. (1809-1899)

Ank Itosu is considered by many the father of modern karate (1831 to 3-11-1915)

Gichin Funakoshi (11-10-1868 to 4-26-1957) is the founder of Shotokan Karate-Do
 

punisher73

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No, he did not. He named his gym after a historical art to appeal to Koreans. He taught Kung fu, since that's what he trained in.



The art of kwonbop no longer existed when Oyama trained. Nor did kwonbop have Dan ranks, since, after all, Dan ranks in the martial arts were instituted by Kano long after Kwonbop faded away into obscurity. Or are you now going to claim that Kano stole Dan ranks from Korea?
Mass Oyama trained in Kempo and Judo. There is no sane reason to believe he (or any of the other founders) lied about their training. Some may well have exaggerated it to some degree (a practice that continues today) but to lie about what their root training was? Preposterous.



Whatever kwonbop is? Kwonbop is nothing other than a few historical references. Nothing remains of the actual training. TKD, according to the people who founded it, is based primarily off Shotokan, with some Kunug Fu and Judo influence.

As I pointed out in another thread. "Gwonbeop" is the Korean rendition for "Quanfa" as it related to an old chinese military manual. So, if a Korean said that they were teaching "Gwonbeop" it meant that they were teaching a Chinese art.

Oyama trained in Chinese Kempo, so in his book if he stated that he trained in "Gwonbeop" again, he was stating that he trained in a Chinese art. Mas Oyama only studied Chinese Kempo and then later Karate. He achieved 2nd Dan in Karate by the time he was 18 years old. His life is very well documented and NONE of Mas Oyama's biographies mention that he had any training in Korea in an indigenous Korean martial art.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The hard fact is that Korean Gwonbeop had existed for 300 years; the hard fact is that Byungin Yoon taught an art called Gwonbeop with very unique moves included. There were and there are a lot of Koreans in Manchuria. He could have learned Korean Gwonbeop from any of them.
You're once again drawing the conclusion you wish, ignoring alternative options that are equally supported by the evidence. Even if we assume all of your statements are accurate, there are issues. But you've given nothing to support that Gwobeop has actually existed across that entire time span - simply that something called Gwonbeop did exist 300 years ago, and something else (maybe the same thing, maybe not) existed later. If I call what I teach Okinawan Te, that doesn't mean it's derived from that art. You say there are "unique moves", but you don't do a good job of supporting that claim. I've yet to find a move in any martial art/combat sport that didn't exist elsewhere, as people can only move a certain number of ways. But let's assume all of your statements are accurate, for the moment. That still leaves the possibility that Byungin Yoon recreated (from his training in other arts and some records he found) an approximation of what he believes Gwonbeop was. That would mean modern Gwonbeop would be descended from what he studied. So any influence modern Gwonbeop has on TKD would then be traceable back to the Chinese and/or Japanese arts Byungin Yoon studied.

But you dismiss that set of possible conclusions - which are supported by your own statements just as well as your own conclusions - because it's not what you want to be true.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Oyama taught a Korean hand strike to Karate cause Karate didn't have it before, Karate had it after, Korean had it before.
You make this claim over and over. But you've provided no evidence that Karate and its predecessor arts didn't have such a strike. What research have you done to look for evidence of one?
 

punisher73

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Again, there is a miscommunication on information. Here is a clip from Choy Li Fut, and the style goes back to the 1800's and if you watch there is plenty of shoulder rotation in the strikes. So, the Koreans didn't invent "shoulder rotation".


Part of the issue with "no shoulder rotation" in karate, is looking at post-WW2 karate that emphasized the aesthetics of form so the punch is always parallel to the floor, the hips, shoulder and punching arm remain squared and the punching arm is at a 90 degree angle to the hips and shoulders. It had NOTHING to do with application, but was for the perfection of character. You can't look at that and say there was no shoulder rotation and because Oyama showed applications of karate that it was "new". Add in the factor that both Itosu and Funakoshi admitted to altering the karate for school children to make it safer and not everything was shown publicly.

So, it could be safe to say that the Shotokan that Oyama learned from Gichin Funakoshi didn't emphasize a shoulder rotation when punching.

Notice in the following Kyokushin video (Pinan Sono Ichi/Pinan Shodan), the punches are done squared in the kata and not rotated forward like they are in application. So even in Oyama's art, he didn't change the kata to reflect his application.

 
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