wow...a $3000 1st poom exam!

granfire

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Yes and no. Could be plain laziness not delivering the goods. One of those things that he keeps putting off. Not saying it is justified, just might not be greed. Again I don't fault him for charging an outrageous price. He has every right as a business to charge whatever he feels like. That is beauty of capitalism. If he can get 50 people to pay him that money, then hats off to him. Greed? Maybe. As a QA Analyst for software I get a pretty decent pay. A bit more then I need for basic survival for my family. Should I tell them that I want less money because they are paying me more than I really need? I don't think so. Come next year I am going to bug the crap out of them for a raise. :)

At a 100 bucks I can let it go slide as laziness, at 3k it's getting awfully close to fraud and theft. It is really not so much a matter of the price (though it does figure in the damages, in a legal way) but a matter of being strung along. I call BS on the delay. The fee is outrageous, but nobody twisted their arms to pay it.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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The fee is outrageous, but nobody twisted their arms to pay it.
Not necesarilly true. I've seen a certain GM browbeat people into testing, buying weapons for optional weapons programs, and all sorts of other things. It may not be a literal arm twist, but there are plenty of non physical ways to manipulate someone into paying too much. And taking advantage of customer ignorance simply because you can and telling them to pay 3K simply because they can is dishonest and fraudulent.

Daniel
 

puunui

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I like how you single in on the guy being a Korean born instructor ripping off non-Koreans. Is that really relevant?


Especially when one considers that neither race nor national origin was mentioned in the original post.
 

granfire

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Not necesarilly true. I've seen a certain GM browbeat people into testing, buying weapons for optional weapons programs, and all sorts of other things. It may not be a literal arm twist, but there are plenty of non physical ways to manipulate someone into paying too much. And taking advantage of customer ignorance simply because you can and telling them to pay 3K simply because they can is dishonest and fraudulent.

Daniel

I know about the browbeating. But at some point a customer needs to look past the edge of the plate. I mean, the information is out at your fingertips these days, little excuse for not knowing better. I don't agree with the browbeating either but it still is a far cry from twisting arms. I do agree though that it is dishonest to pray on a customers ignorance and - lets face it - trust and loyalty. I totally agree, it's unethical, sadly not illegal to the best of my knowledge. HOWEVER: Taking the money and NOT delivering the goods, that should have consequences! Take it to Judge Judy!
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Why?

People pay outrageous prices for purses or shoes or massages...why now martial arts? Why makes what we do any different?
I never said that it was different. Only that it was ridiculous.

However, in an art whose large organizations promote a high standard of behaviour and ethics, the answer to why it is different self evident.

Daniel
 

sfs982000

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I'm curious did this person ever say what they were charged for testing at the lower belts? I would have to agree that $3000.00 for an exam is just crazy. Was this just because of the cost to have the guest GM come in and for the rental of the ballroom or is that their normal cost for poom testing? I'm not sure what the legal ramifications of something like that would because it doesn't really sound like there was a breach of contract anywhere, but after 8 months and still no KKW certificate I don't know I think it would at least be worth some looking into. Then again if no one else complains about it nothing will get done.
 

shima

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Not necesarilly true. I've seen a certain GM browbeat people into testing, buying weapons for optional weapons programs, and all sorts of other things. It may not be a literal arm twist, but there are plenty of non physical ways to manipulate someone into paying too much. And taking advantage of customer ignorance simply because you can and telling them to pay 3K simply because they can is dishonest and fraudulent.

Daniel

Whether they were physically or verbally beat into it, or even if they didn't need any convincing because they're rich, it's still far out of the scope of reasonable fees for a test. There's a point where you switch from paying so your instructors can make a living and paying so your instructors can rip you off...
 

searcher

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I was trying to come up with some smart reply, but the high $$$ of the test made my brain shut down. I think some of us see who is teaching for money and who is not. Its kinda funny, I only charge $15 for a belt test and I get all kinds of slack from students and some parents. If I said it was $3000, they would just pack up and move on to the next school.
 

shima

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Not to mention that outrageous pricing is usually paired with suboptimal instruction.

Daniel

Totally agree on this point, usually people put their price high for the wow factor "wow if he/she costs that much surely they must be good..." when in reality they're compensating for the fact that they're not good by trying to give a false impression.
 
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msmitht

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Her technique is ok but had not sparred in a year. Parents average income. She said that normally belt test was1500 but 20 gms were there and was special test. Got a trophy and sword and new embroidered do bok too.
 

Archtkd

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Her technique is ok but had not sparred in a year. Parents average income. She said that normally belt test was1500 but 20 gms were there and was special test. Got a trophy and sword and new embroidered do bok too.

This story keeps getting sadder by the minute. Average income parents can normally afford to pay $1,500 for a poom certificate and double that when 20 gms come to town to party? This reminds me of Chris Rock's "Good Hair" a controversial and funny/sad documentary, which explores what some women are willing to pay for a weave. It cost $1,000-plus at one shop, which also offered lay away plans.
 

Archtkd

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Her technique is ok but had not sparred in a year. Parents average income. She said that normally belt test was1500 but 20 gms were there and was special test. Got a trophy and sword and new embroidered do bok too.

Which brings me to another question. How much does it cost your students to fly to Korea and take the test at the Kukkiwon in front of real GMs? Fare, plus hotel and actual Kukkiwon fee. I know a GM who's currently offering an 8-day trip to Korea in October, that will include training and testing at the Kukkiwon. Total fee for the whole thing is about $2,000.
 

Gwai Lo Dan

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Which brings me to another question. How much does it cost your students to fly to Korea and take the test at the Kukkiwon in front of real GMs? Fare, plus hotel and actual Kukkiwon fee. I know a GM who's currently offering an 8-day trip to Korea in October, that will include training and testing at the Kukkiwon. Total fee for the whole thing is about $2,000.
But if you spend $2000 to go to Korea, there is no guarantee you will pass! :)
 

miguksaram

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I never said that it was different. Only that it was ridiculous.

However, in an art whose large organizations promote a high standard of behaviour and ethics, the answer to why it is different self evident.

Daniel
But what is unethical for charging $3K, as long as you follow through with what you promise? What is the outrageous behavior being displayed?

For the record, yes, I believe charging $3K is crazy BUT, if you can do it and someone will pay it then more power to you. I personally would not, but then again, I know my customer base well enough to know they would not pay such a fee.
 

miguksaram

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Not to mention that outrageous pricing is usually paired with suboptimal instruction.

Daniel
According to which scientific study on the statistics of pricing vs. quality of instruction?

Why should we as martial artists feel ashamed to charge a premium price for our services? What is this stigma that says we have to live in poverty in order to enjoy what we do?
 

miguksaram

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Whether they were physically or verbally beat into it, or even if they didn't need any convincing because they're rich, it's still far out of the scope of reasonable fees for a test. There's a point where you switch from paying so your instructors can make a living and paying so your instructors can rip you off...

What rip off? Please explain in logical terms, not emotional, on how this instructor is ripping off his students. Afterward please justify why someone like Armani can charge thousands of dollars for a suit that cost less than $50.00 to make and none of you would blink an eye or call him a rip off artist.

Again, just because your clientele can not afford it or would not pay it does not mean this is an outrageous fee for this guy's clientele.
 

miguksaram

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Totally agree on this point, usually people put their price high for the wow factor "wow if he/she costs that much surely they must be good..." when in reality they're compensating for the fact that they're not good by trying to give a false impression.

So couldn't crappy instructors do just the opposite. Charge really low price for that "He does for the love of the art so he must be good". Show me the studies that you are basing this opinion on.
 

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