Would this work?
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
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We've all been kicked in the groin whilst sparring.
Real world reaction to a strike (to whatever target) can range anywhere from total incapacitation to no visible effect at all.
For purposes of training, if I'm drilling a sequence with a partner and we're not actually hitting full force, I prefer to have the partner act out the minimum reaction necessary for the specific sequence we are training to work. That way I'm not counting on a best case scenario if I ever have to use the techniques in real life.
Demos often illustrate more of a best case scenario for dramatic effect.
I'm not sure of the context the original video was created for. If it was just intended as a demonstration of a scenario where overwhelming, potentially lethal force might be justified then I can see why he might have his training partner acting out some of the potential effects of the techniques employed. Hopefully he doesn't actually train on a day-to-day basis with his training partner acting as if every single blow was a devastating hit.
For purposes of training, if I'm drilling a sequence with a partner and we're not actually hitting full force, I prefer to have the partner act out the minimum reaction necessary for the specific sequence we are training to work. That way I'm not counting on a best case scenario if I ever have to use the techniques in real life.
Demos often illustrate more of a best case scenario for dramatic effect.
I'm not sure of the context the original video was created for. If it was just intended as a demonstration of a scenario where overwhelming, potentially lethal force might be justified then I can see why he might have his training partner acting out some of the potential effects of the techniques employed. Hopefully he doesn't actually train on a day-to-day basis with his training partner acting as if every single blow was a devastating hit.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok Tony what's the appropriate response to a full force kick to the throat?
I hate to disagree but the kick to the inner thigh is totally different to the groin kick.
In a lot of karate sparring the kick to the groin is a snap kick with the instep. Only a fool would try that in a real situation. It is too easy to avoid. That is the type of kick you could redirect to the inner thigh where again it is of limited use.
A kick to the inner thigh comes in three forms, at least when I teach it, and the angle and direction are critical. Because the attacker's foot is on the ground and it takes a lot of force to move the body from pushing that point, most of the power goes into the leg to cause maximum effect. Striking the nerve is what causes the drop.
The groin kick has totally different dynamics. Again there are multiple forms of which the kick with the shin shown in this demo is my preferred option. It is the only one that works as designed when the attacker protects reflexively by pulling the hips back. It is delivered as you would kick a football so to say you can redirect that to the inner thigh is simply not true. You have to pull the kick in training.
As to making the kick to the head snappier ... hmm! I think we are living on different planets.
Interesting I tried the OP scenario with a different set of guys last night with an interesting outcome. But I'll wait for you guys that know all about self defence to finish your intriguing discussion before I pass it on. I'm going back for the popcorn.
I'm not sure I'd apply the word "appropriate" in this context. It's not a matter of etiquette. I assume you're asking what a realistic reaction might be.
As I mentioned before, there is a huge range of realistic outcomes.
If you connect cleanly at the perfect angle with a hard kick to the fully exposed throat of someone who is on all fours and not braced for it, a very likely outcome is incapacitation or even death. Some folks might fall backwards as the guy in the video did, some might fall to the side away from you, some might collapse forward after the initial impact, some particularly determined individuals might even grab the gun, roll over and start shooting until they pass out due to a crushed windpipe.
There are guys out there who do demonstrations of taking hard directly to the throat without ill effect. It's pretty much a matter of having really strong neck muscles and being braced for the shot. Hopefully you wouldn't be fighting one of those guys and he wouldn't be braced for the shot. Still, if the guy you are fighting does have really strong neck muscles and tightens them up on impact, he might be able to absorb much of the damage if your kick didn't land as solidly as you might hope.
It's also very likely that you wouldn't manage that perfect, clean, powerful shot directly into the windpipe. Even if your aim is perfect (which would be lucky under the circumstances) , all the guy has to do is tuck his chin or shrug his shoulders or turn his head slightly, or get one arm in the way and your kick is now landing on the head, neck, shoulders, or body. In that case, the outcome could range anywhere from a knockout to no immediate effect at all.
For purposes of training, the reaction I would want would depend on what scenario I was trying to drill. If I was drilling a sequence where I managed to knock him away from the gun with my initial kick, I would have my partner react by moving back the minimum distance to where I had a chance to intercept him with my next technique before he made another grab for the gun. If the situation ever came up in real life and the initial kick worked better than that, then great! But I'd hate to count on the best case scenario and then not have it work out.
Looking forward to hearing about your second run on the experiment. More data is always better.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I've never seen anyone kicked full force in the throat but I have seen a guy get kicked full force in the face while he was on all fours and he went out like a light. I don't know too many folks that can take a full force kick to the head or face while on all fours and still be ok. That's why is illegal in MMA to kick or knee a guy on all fours in the head because it could kill you. I think if your training for a missed or glancing blow you mat have a point. You pull that off correctly it's all over.
A sample size of one is not exactly good science...
I do not disagree that a kick like this can be devastating, just pointing out that it isn't always. Nothing is always...
I've seen too many people smacked full on with bats and crowbars and pipes and bricks and whatever else you can think of come in, get a few stitches, and be discharged to think otherwise.
But I still maintain that as a demo, there's nothing inherently wrong with the videos shown here. We can quibble over the specifics (as I said, I don't care for the elbow to the solar plexus in the most recent video due to the angles shown) but they're demos.
It's not like he's showing those silly no-touch chi knockouts...
I've seen downed fighters get kicked in the head and be knocked out. I've also seen downed fighters get kicked in the head and keep fighting. It's absolutely a dangerous and effective technique. I just believe in training for the worst case outcome more than the best case.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I agree there is no always or never. I watched a 17 year old girl a few weeks ago take a round to the face and was walking and talk. But playing the odds you get shot in the face your in trouble. Playing the odds you get booted in the face your going out. I get training for worst case. That wasn't the debate. Saying the reaction in training in the video was over the top was kinda silly. So what's the appropriate response for training? In a Kara we do in Goju you kick the attacker he bends forward as you throw an elbow. Should we not train that the kick causes you to bend over because it might not make everyone bend over? Or do we train the odds.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Worst case is you miss and he shoots you. So........... not much to train then.
But, but they are totally amazing! I saw one once demonstrated by a rather small Australian chap. I was totally and absolutely unimpressed, in fact I nearly choked with trying not to laugh out loud. It is amazing though..... the way people can be taken in by it. As they can be by a lot of things.....
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Well ... worst case where there is still something to train for.
If you're training that particular sequence, you have the partner bend over enough to throw the elbow. Hopefully you also have other sequences you train that don't rely on that reaction, so you can be prepared either way.
Maybe... except that very few gunshots (especially single gunshots) are immediately incapacitating. You can train to keep him from firing a second (third, forth, fifth...) shot. "You've been hit in the right arm (tie that arm back)... now what can you do?"
Of course, there is a difference between training and demos, and all the videos shown here are focusing on extremely limited cases and can hardly be expected to cover every possible contingency.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
True which is why if I shoot I shoot alot and fast until you stop coming
Good plan. I had a patient recently who tried to rob a gun store (but failed). When the PD caught up to him, he stabbed the officer in the arm. The officer then shot him. 5 times. At what you might guess was pretty close range...
One shot hit his right upper arm - muscle damage only, arm not incapacitated.
One shot hit his left upper arm - same result as above.
One shot grazed his abdomen on the left side - no penetration.
One shot went through and through his abdomen on the right side - soft tissue only, no penetration of the abdominal cavity.
One shot missed completely.
This guy absolutely could have kept fighting. Fortunately he did not.
The same PD had another officer involved shooting a couple days later. This person shot at the officer and missed. The officer responded with two rounds, center mass. Perp was DRT.
As I've said in other threads, accuracy counts...
So from a training standpoint, I'd assume that you can continue to fight after being wounded. Obviously dead is dead. But being shot isn't necessarily the end of the scenario.
I suppose one favorable possibility of the head kick scenario is that if the bad guy does reach the gun, he might be concussed enough that his shots will go wild. Nothing you could count on or test in training, of course, but it could be a point in favor of that tactic.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
ok lets look at this simply. The groin kicks that were dropping those ufc guys. What kick do you think they were originally throwing?
inner leg kicks accidentally turn into fight ending groin kicks. But you are saying cant be done on purpose.
ok the head kick is the same as the groin kick or the inner leg kick. Or at least can be. (ok you could learn a different kick for each target. But i personally wouldn't bother.)
there are competitions where head kicks are allowed. And they are not really a different kick.
why are you messing around with a bunch of different kicks when one will do the job?
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