Hanzou
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MMA vs BJJ - Ground and Pound Experiment - Feat. 2 Special Guest
Featuring Gary Tonon and Gordan Ryan
Featuring Gary Tonon and Gordan Ryan
MMA vs Bjj: The ground and pound experiment
- Thread starter Hanzou
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I remember when I first started to train MMA, I was already a Blue belt in BJJ and had 4 Muay Thai fights.....but training full MMA is quite different, even though I already had _the_, 2 major components of standup & ground, covered. The first time, getting GNP'ed by guys who I can beat to even whoop badly in standup only.....(BJJ only, it was about even)...but they had much more MMA training than me......I was quite surprised by how different and how quick it made me tap. The first few GNP's, it was a panicky feeling. This was medium power sparring with 7oz MMA gloves. I got used to it pretty quickly though due to my training.
A BJJ only guy, who's face has never really been tested with strikes (probably) like in that video, .....then that's going to be much, much worse. Then there's that soccer kick to the face....it's so easy to kick someone in the head like a soccer ball like this w/o any training, yet still cause massive damage. I train to defend this while my partner wears shinguards and kicking at like 30% power, but even with a double forearm block, it still hurts in a blunt force type, jarring pain.
A BJJ only guy, who's face has never really been tested with strikes (probably) like in that video, .....then that's going to be much, much worse. Then there's that soccer kick to the face....it's so easy to kick someone in the head like a soccer ball like this w/o any training, yet still cause massive damage. I train to defend this while my partner wears shinguards and kicking at like 30% power, but even with a double forearm block, it still hurts in a blunt force type, jarring pain.
hoshin1600
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I like the fact that they are experimenting with the idea but I don't think it is an honest evaluation. From my experience large gloves like what was used in the vid really puts the striker at a disadvantage. The hands become very slow and cumbersome. They are easy to controll for the grappler and the striker can not grab and controll at all. The striker was having a hard time just moving around without the use of his hands.
A much better way to work the drill would have been no gloves ,using palm strikes.
A much better way to work the drill would have been no gloves ,using palm strikes.
drop bear
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I don't have 18 minutes of YouTube. So I flicked through.
As hard as they were hitting five ounce mma gloves would have done the trick. Or shute box gloves.
A lot of the entries that the striker used to go into guard would have been technically wrong from our point of view. For us hips forwards head up. To prevent the upkick.
Otherwise this is a drill we do. Guard half guard side control mount and back.
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I don't think this really qualifies as much of an informative experiment. We already know that a BJJ practitioner can successfully defend himself from ground-n-pound in the guard. We also know that a BJJ practitioner can fail to successfully defend himself from ground-n-pound in the guard. There have been many, many examples of both over the years. It comes down to the respective skills and physical and mental attributes of the fighters on top and bottom.
In this case the guys on bottom were very high level BJJ practitioners who include defense against G-n-P as part of their normal training*. The guys on top were much lower level MMA fighters. If it had been world-class MMA fighters on top and average BJJ blue belts on the bottom then the results would have been very different.
(With regard to the gloves, sometimes we do this exercise with boxing gloves, sometimes with MMA gloves, sometimes with bare hands delivering open hand slaps. It just depends on how you want the focus of the drill.)
What is interesting about this video is just watching how these particular high-level BJJ practitioners approached the bottom game. They're much more leg-lock oriented than what you might see from classic BJJ doctrine. Of course, Tonon is one of the best leg-lockers on the planet so it's not a huge surprise to see that from him. It is informative to see how he sets up the leg-locks while protecting himself from strikes.
*(With the rise of BJJ practice focused primarily on grappling competitions, there are more and more BJJ practitioners who don't do this sort of training much at all.)
In this case the guys on bottom were very high level BJJ practitioners who include defense against G-n-P as part of their normal training*. The guys on top were much lower level MMA fighters. If it had been world-class MMA fighters on top and average BJJ blue belts on the bottom then the results would have been very different.
(With regard to the gloves, sometimes we do this exercise with boxing gloves, sometimes with MMA gloves, sometimes with bare hands delivering open hand slaps. It just depends on how you want the focus of the drill.)
What is interesting about this video is just watching how these particular high-level BJJ practitioners approached the bottom game. They're much more leg-lock oriented than what you might see from classic BJJ doctrine. Of course, Tonon is one of the best leg-lockers on the planet so it's not a huge surprise to see that from him. It is informative to see how he sets up the leg-locks while protecting himself from strikes.
*(With the rise of BJJ practice focused primarily on grappling competitions, there are more and more BJJ practitioners who don't do this sort of training much at all.)
Are these BJJ only people in the video, or are they MMA trained or even MMA fighters...who are just showing off their grappling to prove a biased point? Big difference. BJJ only people rarely train and fight, ie. Muay Thai or full MMA, for a reason, they don't like getting hit in the face.
Just skimming through the video, it's clearly biased with the striker using 16oz Boxing gloves and can't grapple. They don't have MMA 7oz, sparring gloves? Punches with MMA gloves will now have more precise, pinpoint accuracy, harder to block, etc. But it's still just sparring for the striker, and he can't throw full power and possibly KO and/or break noses, bones, etc. While the BJJ can go 100% power & intensity with his grappling = way, way unfair.
These experiments/demos are usually always biased to give the BJJ unfair advantages.
Just skimming through the video, it's clearly biased with the striker using 16oz Boxing gloves and can't grapple. They don't have MMA 7oz, sparring gloves? Punches with MMA gloves will now have more precise, pinpoint accuracy, harder to block, etc. But it's still just sparring for the striker, and he can't throw full power and possibly KO and/or break noses, bones, etc. While the BJJ can go 100% power & intensity with his grappling = way, way unfair.
These experiments/demos are usually always biased to give the BJJ unfair advantages.
The guy who made the video (and is also one of the guys working from guard) is Firas Zahabi. Zahabi is a very well respected MMA trainer and the head coach at the Tristar Gym. You might know him as the coach for George St. Pierre, among others. Zahabi is very well versed in stand-up striking as well as jiu-jitsu.
The guys on top were amateur MMA fighters who train out of Tristar. Competent, but nowhere near the level of the guys who were working from the bottom.
Regarding the gloves, honestly in this case it made no difference. I don't think any of the top guys landed a single head shot and only a few, awkward body shots. The skill difference was just that great.
I really don't think Zahabi was trying to suggest that a BJJ fighter on the bottom is magically invulnerable to G-n-P. Given that he was the coach for a UFC champion who made heavy use of G-n-P, that would be silly. I think he was just trying to show that BJJ can be used effectively from that position and to show some examples of how that works.
kuniggety
2nd Black Belt
I really agree with everything Tony has said. I think I saw one or two good/decent face shots which might've given a different result had they not been wearing 16 oz gloves and at the same time it might not have. I also thought it interesting the shear number of leg locks (I do remember at least one triangle though) that were used to finish the MMA fighters, given that leg locks weren't really part of old school BJJ. Heck, most competitions ban anything leg related other than the straight ankle lock until you're at least a brown belt. Even as a BJJ guy, I don't think the "experiment" demonstrated the effectiveness of BJJ very well. You have three world class BJJ BBs vs some MMA guys with no size advantage and not nearly the level of training of them. The video opened showing a BJJ losing to someone who was much larger than him and the BJJ guy did not demonstrate the level of skill of a high level BJJ BB.
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Hanzou
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The more leg lock-centric style of Bjj is definitely different than the style of Bjj I'm used to (old school Gracie JJ via Relson and Rickson). I was pretty surprised to hear that that style came out of Renzo's academy. I always thought that style came from Eddie Bravo. 
I agree with some of the criticisms brought up about the video. I mean, the Bjj guys are elite level practitioners. I think the video would have been better served if they had a regular Bjj purple, brown, or black belt in there against some regular MMA guys. It's kind of unfair to put elite Bjj practitioners against amateur level MMA practitioners, because the vast majority of people practicing Bjj will never reach that level of proficiency, so I can kind of see the point that FriedRice was making. I mean hell, Tonon almost defeated Kron Gracie in grappling. Your standard Bjj practitioner going 2-3 times a week for an hour at a time is never going to be on that level.
That said, the general point is that Bjj practitioners definitely need to incorporate striking into their grappling. It's honestly not that hard to do once you learn the fundamentals. One of the things I did when I hit blue belt was start rolling from standing instead of my knees, and wearing mouth pieces and MMA gloves. That went a long way with making me comfortable with dealing with people punching and kicking you while you're trying to grapple with them.
I agree with some of the criticisms brought up about the video. I mean, the Bjj guys are elite level practitioners. I think the video would have been better served if they had a regular Bjj purple, brown, or black belt in there against some regular MMA guys. It's kind of unfair to put elite Bjj practitioners against amateur level MMA practitioners, because the vast majority of people practicing Bjj will never reach that level of proficiency, so I can kind of see the point that FriedRice was making. I mean hell, Tonon almost defeated Kron Gracie in grappling. Your standard Bjj practitioner going 2-3 times a week for an hour at a time is never going to be on that level.
That said, the general point is that Bjj practitioners definitely need to incorporate striking into their grappling. It's honestly not that hard to do once you learn the fundamentals. One of the things I did when I hit blue belt was start rolling from standing instead of my knees, and wearing mouth pieces and MMA gloves. That went a long way with making me comfortable with dealing with people punching and kicking you while you're trying to grapple with them.
John Danaher (who teaches out of Renzo's academy) has done a lot to innovate and refine the modern leg-lock game. I believe he has some injuries which keep him from competing, but he's supposed to be a world-class technician.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
My two cents: I haven't studied the video in detail but from a strikers perspective I did notice two things:
1) 5:58 - From being on your back against a standing opponent in a position of having your legs facing your opponent spinning 180 degrees so that your head is facing them is a bad idea.
2) 6:01 - From that position with the right foot wrapped behind your opponent you are in a prime position for a kick with the left foot to your opponents knee. The opponents head is also at a convenient kicking height with the way he's leaning forward.
1) 5:58 - From being on your back against a standing opponent in a position of having your legs facing your opponent spinning 180 degrees so that your head is facing them is a bad idea.
2) 6:01 - From that position with the right foot wrapped behind your opponent you are in a prime position for a kick with the left foot to your opponents knee. The opponents head is also at a convenient kicking height with the way he's leaning forward.
I've spent a lot of time over the years defending against punches from my closed guard. And a good part of that is punching and elbowing the top man from your closed guard. And it's not really difficult. But it is fun.
As for an open guard - I dunno', I never had much of one.
As for an open guard - I dunno', I never had much of one.
Agreed. I think he was spinning to attack the leg and then overshot when his sparring partner stepped away. At least he recovered quickly.
In a real fight, the guys on the bottom would have been doing a lot more up-kicks. They may have been avoiding them in this drill for safety's sake, but I guarantee they were aware of every opportunity they had to kick the guy on top.
Thanks for the info.
I agree that a BJJ-only guy can use his BJJ vs. a Striker-only guy and vice versa, where the BJJ-only guy can get KO'ed by the Striker-only.
Love training my ground movement and control techniques against a guy striking with boxing gloves. This is a really good drill once you have learned some of the basics!
drop bear
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Who was leaning forwards. Which I am suprised at. Because it makes you an easy larget for up kicks.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
So… what in all of this has anything to do with self defence? Considering the forum and all...
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Hanzou
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In a self defense situation you can get knocked to the ground, or tackled to the ground. While there you will more than likely get punched in the face. These guys are showing how Bjj responds to that situation.
