Would someone benefit from dropping in on your TKD school?

[skribs]

In my experience, TKD is so much tied to the curriculum of the school, it makes drop-ins pretty much useless. If a green belt from School A goes to School B, they're just going to get told everything they're doing wrong (because they do it the way School A does), get shown a bunch of stuff that's going to be on the green belt test in School B's next testing, and then go back to School A completely confused.

Compare this to my experience doing a drop-in on another BJJ school, where I picked up some new techniques and concepts that I utilize quite often when I'm rolling back at my main gym.

I wonder if it's possible to teach a curriculum like in TKD and have the school be drop-in friendly at all belt levels. It's something I'd like to be able to do. But I don't know if it's something I'd be able to do.

 

[drop bear]

Same as bjj. You focus on their live concepts rather than their structured techniques.

Which is where you get the most benefit from drop ins anyway.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have had people from other striking arts drop in for sparring sessions or just drills in order to expand their repertoire. Being near O'Hare International airport I have had drop ins from many doing the Chang Hon System but not necessarily to ITF Specs. This is where teaching a particular system has benefits for those who my drop in to your school and those from your school who decide to drop in elsewhere. Over the years I have had drop ins from Siberia, Argentina, Canada, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Russia, Poland, The UK, and various places from across the USA. A huge percentage found me because I teach the ITF system. Had an East Coast Chang Hon guy - Not ITF specs visit once and had a group perform a pattern and then had them say where they learned it - USA, Siberia , Poland, and one or two other places. His comment was he thought they had all been my students from white belt.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I can't speak for TKD, but I think my kempo school was similar enough in structure that it could be used as an example. We had X belts, with Y techniques taught at each level (too lazy to figure out numbers/not important here), and classes typically were some combination of warm up, technique learning/drilling, form learning/drilling, striking practice, and depending on the week either sparring/weapons/breathing techniques/meditation, followed by cooldown.

The techniques also varied from school to school, since I went to 3 different schools, all in the same area, and they all taught them differently.

At my first school, where I was from 3 years old to 15ish, we'd occasionally have drop ins from other states. Ultimately, those drop ins would do the techniques/forms when the class did, but didn't get corrections unless something was fundamentally wrong (ie: they're throwing a punch with their elbow corking). If there was a difference in the technique itself, a student or instructor might ask them why, but if they said that's how it's done at their school, that was it. They weren't our students, so the onus wasn't on us to verify what they were saying, and it'd be more harmful than helpful to correct their techniques away from what they were supposed to learn.

I'm not sure if they found their drop-ins helpful or not, in the way you're describing with BJJ, but they were still able to train while out of state. And I found it helpful - it introduced me to variations of techniques, let me know how other schools did things, and gave me some sparring partners where I don't already know what to expect going in, having sparred them 100 times before.

It would be a very different thing if my instructors started nitpicking them or correcting things they were taught at their school, but again - they weren't students of our school, we're aware variations exist, and they weren't testing with us, so there was no reason for them to heed any corrections in that sense anyway. The school also cared about developing ability rather than just prepping for whatever test was next, which seems to be different from your original school as well, so that might make it different.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I can't speak for TKD, but I think my kempo school was similar enough in structure that it could be used as an example. We had X belts, with Y techniques taught at each level (too lazy to figure out numbers/not important here), and classes typically were some combination of warm up, technique learning/drilling, form learning/drilling, striking practice, and depending on the week either sparring/weapons/breathing techniques/meditation, followed be cooldown.

The techniques also varied from school to school, since I went to 3 different schools, all in the same area, and they all taught them differently.

At my first school, where I was from 3 years old to 15ish, we'd occasionally have drop ins from other states. Ultimately, those drop ins would do the techniques/forms when the class did, but didn't get corrections unless something was fundamentally wrong (ie: they're throwing a punch with their elbow corking). If there was a difference in the technique itself, a student or instructor might ask them why, but if they said that's how it's done at their school, that was it. They weren't our students, so the onus wasn't on us to verify what they were saying, and it'd be more harmful than helpful to correct their techniques away from what they were supposed to learn.

I'm not sure if they found their drop-ins helpful or not, in the way you're describing with BJJ, but they were still able to train while out of state. And I found it helpful - it introduced me to variations of techniques, let me know how other schools did things, and gave me some sparring partners where I don't already know what to expect going in, having sparred them 100 times before.

It would be a very different thing if my instructors started nitpicking them or correcting things they were taught at their school, but again - they weren't students of our school, we're aware variations exist, and they weren't testing with us, so there was no reason for them to heed any corrections in that sense anyway. The school also cared about developing ability rather than just prepping for whatever test was next, which seems to be different from your original school as well, so that might make it different.

Writing the onus wasn't on us made me google and check to see if the word onus was at some point derived from a phrase similar to "that's not on us/that's on us". Sadly, it is not. It comes from the latin word onus, which means load/burden.

 

[skribs]

Same as bjj. You focus on their live concepts rather than their structured techniques.

Which is where you get the most benefit from drop ins anyway.

My biggest issue with BJJ is I think it does a poor job of the early stages of development. Which is why I don't want to completely go this route, and instead want some structure in the beginning.

The plan is to go less structured at black belt (2.5 years in my system, so "blue belt" to you).

 

[skribs]

I have had people from other striking arts drop in for sparring sessions or just drills in order to expand their repertoire. Being near O'Hare International airport I have had drop ins from many doing the Chang Hon System but not necessarily to ITF Specs. This is where teaching a particular system has benefits for those who my drop in to your school and those from your school who decide to drop in elsewhere. Over the years I have had drop ins from Siberia, Argentina, Canada, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Ukraine, Russia, Poland, The UK, and various places from across the USA. A huge percentage found me because I teach the ITF system. Had an East Coast Chang Hon guy - Not ITF specs visit once and had a group perform a pattern and then had them say where they learned it - USA, Siberia , Poland, and one or two other places. His comment was he thought they had all been my students from white belt.

I'm specifically trying to avoid affiliating with another organization. Too many headaches. If I were to affiliate, it would likely be with an organization that has less standardization.

I can't speak for TKD, but I think my kempo school was similar enough in structure that it could be used as an example. We had X belts, with Y techniques taught at each level (too lazy to figure out numbers/not important here), and classes typically were some combination of warm up, technique learning/drilling, form learning/drilling, striking practice, and depending on the week either sparring/weapons/breathing techniques/meditation, followed by cooldown.

The techniques also varied from school to school, since I went to 3 different schools, all in the same area, and they all taught them differently.

At my first school, where I was from 3 years old to 15ish, we'd occasionally have drop ins from other states. Ultimately, those drop ins would do the techniques/forms when the class did, but didn't get corrections unless something was fundamentally wrong (ie: they're throwing a punch with their elbow corking). If there was a difference in the technique itself, a student or instructor might ask them why, but if they said that's how it's done at their school, that was it. They weren't our students, so the onus wasn't on us to verify what they were saying, and it'd be more harmful than helpful to correct their techniques away from what they were supposed to learn.

I'm not sure if they found their drop-ins helpful or not, in the way you're describing with BJJ, but they were still able to train while out of state. And I found it helpful - it introduced me to variations of techniques, let me know how other schools did things, and gave me some sparring partners where I don't already know what to expect going in, having sparred them 100 times before.

It would be a very different thing if my instructors started nitpicking them or correcting things they were taught at their school, but again - they weren't students of our school, we're aware variations exist, and they weren't testing with us, so there was no reason for them to heed any corrections in that sense anyway. The school also cared about developing ability rather than just prepping for whatever test was next, which seems to be different from your original school as well, so that might make it different.

I like this. One of the problems I had with the curriculum at my old school is that it never ended, and my Master was very focused on teaching the curriculum because that's what students want (because that's how they get their belt). I do think it's important during the muscle memory phase of the curriculum, but a burden when we should be transitioning to the application phase.

I also think TKD masters in general have a tendency to look at techniques as "right" and "wrong" instead of seeing variants with pros and cons.

I think your approach would work. They might not get as much benefit as a BJJ person would from a drop-in (because you often won't get any opportunity to use what you learned). But they could get good exercise, maybe get some feedback, and I could learn new ways of doing things (or new ways of not doing things).

 

[Old CJ]

Writing the onus wasn't on us made me google and check to see if the word onus was at some point derived from a phrase similar to "that's not on us/that's on us". Sadly, it is not. It comes from the latin word onus, which means load/burden.

Is this language bunkai?

 

[drop bear]

My biggest issue with BJJ is I think it does a poor job of the early stages of development. Which is why I don't want to completely go this route, and instead want some structure in the beginning.

The plan is to go less structured at black belt (2.5 years in my system, so "blue belt" to you).

It isn't binary. I was thinking about that when I wrote my thing. But couldn't shoe Horn it in.

So there would be elements of conformity and elements of individualism.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When you're doing forms, they need to be done to the standard of the school you're in. That said, I don't think different ways of doing things are wrong, so much as they're just different.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When you're doing forms, they need to be done to the standard of the school you're in. That said, I don't think different ways of doing things are wrong, so much as they're just different.

Master Shimabuku made several minor changes over the years, so the American service men who trained isshinryu with him learned a few things differently, depending on what years they were in Okinawa. The master's son and son-in-law later on also made a couple subtle changes in some kata technique. These military guys then brought back their karate to the USA and opened schools, teaching the way they were taught, each developing lineage's kata a tiny bit different from each other, yet all "correct."

If a visiting black belt from another lineage comes into my dojo, I don't care which "correct" way he does it. I've learned and done them all. I will show him how my current lineage does it and if he plans to train in my dojo for any length of time and wants a promotion, he will need to do it the way we do it. It's no big thing; an open hand block instead of an open hand strike, a backfist instead of a punch, etc. For a black belt, such changes should come easily. In fact, such flexibility in execution should be part of a black belt's skill set.

 

[marvin8]

Writing the onus wasn't on us made me google and check to see if the word onus was at some point derived from a phrase similar to "that's not on us/that's on us". Sadly, it is not. It comes from the latin word onus, which means load/burden.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm specifically trying to avoid affiliating with another organization. Too many headaches. If I were to affiliate, it would likely be with an organization that has less standardization.

It has been 14 years since I separated from the ITF although I remain with the USTF. Still, the technical standards for the core curriculum conform 90+% to the ITF and this is known by potential drop ins. Point being you can avoid organizational headaches but have a core curriculum that conforms to widely accepted standard facilitating portability both to and from your school and have curricula outside the core for whatever you feel the core is lacking.

 

[Earl Weiss]

When you're doing forms, they need to be done to the standard of the school you're in. That said, I don't think different ways of doing things are wrong, so much as they're just different.

If Mozart says you are playing his composition wrong - is what you are doing wrong or just different?

 

[Buka]

In my experience, TKD is so much tied to the curriculum of the school, it makes drop-ins pretty much useless. If a green belt from School A goes to School B, they're just going to get told everything they're doing wrong (because they do it the way School A does), get shown a bunch of stuff that's going to be on the green belt test in School B's next testing, and then go back to School A completely confused.

Compare this to my experience doing a drop-in on another BJJ school, where I picked up some new techniques and concepts that I utilize quite often when I'm rolling back at my main gym.

I wonder if it's possible to teach a curriculum like in TKD and have the school be drop-in friendly at all belt levels. It's something I'd like to be able to do. But I don't know if it's something I'd be able to do.

I trained in TKD at Billy Blanks school in Massachusetts. Billy had trained under Park Jong-Soo.

If you walked into Billy’s school you’d be completely comfortable, even though it was NOT completely traditional TKD.

A whole lot of traditional TKD guys showed up as walk-ins.
They all had a ball. Other than being more tired after class than they were used to.

Skribs, I think as you age you’ll be able to run a school that would be drop-in friendly to anyone.

 

[HighKick]

We have drop-ins and a monthly open mat night. Style doesn't have a lot to do with it in a good, strong, confident school.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If Mozart says you are playing his composition wrong - is what you are doing wrong or just different?

I'm assuming you're not a musician. Pretty much every performance is slightly different.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If Mozart says you are playing his composition wrong - is what you are doing wrong or just different?

I can quite literally play some of mozarts pieces blindfolded, in front of judges, and get pretty close to a perfect score. That said, when I play them for myself/others, I'm going to play them different than when I'm trying to mimic mozart. Not because I'm playing them wrong, because I'm playing them to my style, which is different. And if you never heard either version, but read the sheet music only, you wouldn't know which one is the original.

 

[skribs]

I trained in TKD at Billy Blanks school in Massachusetts. Billy had trained under Park Jong-Soo.

If you walked into Billy’s school you’d be completely comfortable, even though it was NOT completely traditional TKD.

A whole lot of traditional TKD guys showed up as walk-ins.
They all had a ball. Other than being more tired after class than they were used to.

Skribs, I think as you age you’ll be able to run a school that would be drop-in friendly to anyone.

What made it work?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What made it work?

Not having been there, I feel I can still make an accurate guess: The instructor not complaining about people doing things differently than him, instead understanding why they do things their way, and opening sparring to allow visitors and not limit those visitors with the ruleset.