Would someone benefit from dropping in on your TKD school?

[skribs]

I appreciate all of the answers in this thread. However, I was thinking about it, and I don't think I live in a town where I'm likely to have many drop-ins. So it's likely a moot point.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm also curious how you know this is how it's done in all the other tournaments in the era, when you said this was the only tournament you ever did.

I did NOT say this. The tournament I posted about in my original post was the first in about 48 years when I was 71 years old. I went to many tournaments in the late 60's and early 70's during my late teens and early twenties: Long Beach, LA, Santa Monica, San Diego, and others in Southern Calif. as well as Denver, CO.

You may be reading my posts thru a filtered lens. Here is the actual quote from my post #36:

during my first karate tournament in 45 years

It was actually closer to 48 years upon further computation.

There's a ton of different BJJ federations that have different rules

And,

If you train under NAGA rules and go into an IBJJF tournament thinking it's the same thing, you might do an illegal move without knowing it

Exactly. And we did not even have things like NAGA, IBJJF, or any other rule-setting organization. To prevent doing "an illegal move without knowing it" the head ring judge would brief the competitors. Why is it so hard for you to understand? Think outside your own box. With all that I've posted on this subject, there's no reason to pursue this any longer.

Fighters are supposed to turn up to that briefing.

Yes, and for the old karate tournaments that briefing was done in each ring for each division for the competitors just before the matches started.!

 

[drop bear]

I appreciate all of the answers in this thread. However, I was thinking about it, and I don't think I live in a town where I'm likely to have many drop-ins. So it's likely a moot point.

We get quite a few for a small town

 

[Earl Weiss]

I appreciate all of the answers in this thread. However, I was thinking about it, and I don't think I live in a town where I'm likely to have many drop-ins. So it's likely a moot point.

What about the reverse. Ability of your students to benefit from dropping in or transferring to another "Familiar curriculum " School in the event they re locate.

 

[skribs]

What about the reverse. Ability of your students to benefit from dropping in or transferring to another "Familiar curriculum " School in the event they re locate.

There won't be another "familiar curriculum" school. I'm going unaffiliated.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There won't be another "familiar curriculum" school. I'm going unaffiliated.

Sir, that was my point - you can be unaffiliated yet have a core curriculum that contains a familiar curriculum of a large organization which will make it easier for your students to find a home if they move or drop in if they have an opportunity to do so. I have not had any formal affiliation with any ITF since 2010 yet if a student of mine relocates I can refer them to a local TK-D school. Recently had one relocate to the Miami area and did just that. Similarly last night an ITF (Still not sure which ITF) 3rd Dan who relocated to my area from Bolivia dropped in.

 

[skribs]

Sir, that was my point - you can be unaffiliated yet have a core curriculum that contains a familiar curriculum of a large organization which will make it easier for your students to find a home if they move or drop in if they have an opportunity to do so. I have not had any formal affiliation with any ITF since 2010 yet if a student of mine relocates I can refer them to a local TK-D school. Recently had one relocate to the Miami area and did just that. Similarly last night an ITF (Still not sure which ITF) 3rd Dan who relocated to my area from Bolivia dropped in.

If I'm going to use someone else's curriculum I might as well be affiliated with them.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If I'm going to use someone else's curriculum I might as well be affiliated with them.

I understand your view, however I would guess that as far as the Chang Hon curriculum goes there are more schools not part of any ITF that use it than those who are part of any ITF. So, that option is not unusual. I will let someone else opine as to the situation with regard to the KKW pattern set and sparring guidelines.

 

[HighKick]

If I'm going to use someone else's curriculum I might as well be affiliated with them.

Anyone who owns/teaches a school is "using someone else's curriculum" in part or in whole. More often than not, it isn't what you teach but how you teach it and your ability to scale the teaching as people grow in knowledge.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Anyone who owns/teaches a school is "using someone else's curriculum" in part or in whole. More often than not, it isn't what you teach but how you teach it and your ability to scale the teaching as people grow in knowledge.

It's a question of if you're using their exact curriculum or using the knowledge you gained from different arts/schools to teach your own.

If you're using someone else's curriculum to the point Earl is referring to, but not affiliating yourself with the school that created it, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. I say this because my original school/style/franchise/whatever you want to call it sued another group of schools that split off, and won. It was found that the curriculum was considered copyright, and the training methods were "trade secrets" that they stole by not developing their own, and ended up owing 7.7 million in the lawsuit.

 

[skribs]

It's a question of if you're using their exact curriculum or using the knowledge you gained from different arts/schools to teach your own.

If you're using someone else's curriculum to the point Earl is referring to, but not affiliating yourself with the school that created it, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. I say this because my original school/style/franchise/whatever you want to call it sued another group of schools that split off, and won. It was found that the curriculum was considered copyright, and the training methods were "trade secrets" that they stole by not developing their own, and ended up owing 7.7 million in the lawsuit.

To what degree would you need to change things in order for it to be your own?

For example,

• My forms are mostly different from what I've learned, but there are few forms that are very similar.
• My beginner curriculum is very similar, albeit with some changes.
• My 30,000-foot view of the progression to black belt is very similar, but there are a lot of differences in the details and in what happens after black belt.
• I use a very different structure for the 1-steps, but some of the techniques are an almost direct copy from what I learned before.

I think there are more differences than similarities between my curriculum and my old Master's curriculum, but there are still some definite similarities. I am not anywhere close to stepping on KKW's toes. The things that are similar I believe are school-specific curriculum items, and I've seen similar things in multiple TKD schools, which suggests to me they're not copyrightable. I've seen very similar things in videos from other martial arts (TSD, Karate).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

To what degree would you need to change things in order for it to be your own?

For example,

• My forms are mostly different from what I've learned, but there are few forms that are very similar.
• My beginner curriculum is very similar, albeit with some changes.
• My 30,000-foot view of the progression to black belt is very similar, but there are a lot of differences in the details and in what happens after black belt.
• I use a very different structure for the 1-steps, but some of the techniques are an almost direct copy from what I learned before.

I think there are more differences than similarities between my curriculum and my old Master's curriculum, but there are still some definite similarities. I am not anywhere close to stepping on KKW's toes. The things that are similar I believe are school-specific curriculum items, and I've seen similar things in multiple TKD schools, which suggests to me they're not copyrightable. I've seen very similar things in videos from other martial arts (TSD, Karate).

Disclaimer: This was probably around 15 years ago, I was a teen at the time, so my understanding is limited.

My understanding is that it was very similar. Same forms, same curriculum (strikes and what you would call 1/2-steps), same conditioning techniques, same 'values' that they espouse in their curriculum/websites. Differences came from testing and them wanting to branch out due to some internal politics more than anything.

Given how you're planning your curriculum, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. The only issue would be if you copied your master's curriculum (or another established org's curriculum) and labelled it as skribs TKD instead (And then had someone nearby vindictive enough to sue you for it). Which is what you would have to do for Earl's suggestion.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you're using someone else's curriculum to the point Earl is referring to, but not affiliating yourself with the school that created it, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. I

I think few systems have intellectual property protections. ATA was notably one that did.

 

[skribs]

I think few systems have intellectual property protections. ATA was notably one that did.

My Master was very concerned about the IP of his curriculum. But when I moved and saw techniques and sequences at my new school that were almost the exact same, I concluded that the only thing he could copyright is the order in which they appear (i.e. if I use the same techniques for my Blue Belt #1-5 as he uses for Blue Belt #1-5).

He had me sign an NDA before I left. He was very worried about putting out videos, to the point he had me do a cybersecurity analysis of how Youtube permissions work (he only wanted people he authorized to be able to see his videos). He had few written copies of the curriculum, and he was very concerned when he would hand them out. He even told me that if I were to use his curriculum when I made my own school, I'd have to franchise under him.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think few systems have intellectual property protections. ATA was notably one that did.

It's something that you'd have to keep an eye on, at least if you grow. If you use another systems curriculum, and in the future they set up IP protections, they could potentially sue you afterwards. Depending on who it is (I'm thinking partially of how skribs has indicated his ex-master thinks), they may do it specifically for the purpose of suing you later on.

It also might be a bigger thing in the kempo world than in the TKD one.

 

[HighKick]

It's a question of if you're using their exact curriculum or using the knowledge you gained from different arts/schools to teach your own.

If you're using someone else's curriculum to the point Earl is referring to, but not affiliating yourself with the school that created it, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. I say this because my original school/style/franchise/whatever you want to call it sued another group of schools that split off, and won. It was found that the curriculum was considered copyright, and the training methods were "trade secrets" that they stole by not developing their own, and ended up owing 7.7 million in the lawsuit.

That is on another scale from common, and I would aver more than a couple of attorney's were involved in the ownership arrangement for it to push that far.
Regardless, it would seem a very, very tough sell to say you 'own' the patent for a front kick. If the offending school took the other systems curriculum, methodology (a Big one in patent infringement), literature, and morphed the name, and copied virtually everything the original school was doing, I could see it happening. But that would be a very, very stupid thing to do.
May I ask what year that happened? The timeframe could also be relevant.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That is on another scale from common, and I would aver more than a couple of attorney's were involved in the ownership arrangement for it to push that far.
Regardless, it would seem a very, very tough sell to say you 'own' the patent for a front kick. If the offending school took the other systems curriculum, methodology (a Big one in patent infringement), literature, and morphed the name, and copied virtually everything the original school was doing, I could see it happening. But that would be a very, very stupid thing to do.
May I ask what year that happened? The timeframe could also be relevant.

I don't want to provide the year because I'd imagine it wouldn't be very tough to find the lawsuit with the extra info and I'd rather avoid that. I will say think late 2000s-ish.

From my understanding, the big part was the curriculum. Taking the forms and combinations/1/2-steps and the same belt progression, the argument was that having the same belt progression and same techniques was the training methodology.

 

[HighKick]

I don't want to provide the year because I'd imagine it wouldn't be very tough to find the lawsuit with the extra info and I'd rather avoid that. I will say think late 2000s-ish.

From my understanding, the big part was the curriculum. Taking the forms and combinations/1/2-steps and the same belt progression, the argument was that having the same belt progression and same techniques was the training methodology.

I have to say that is quite surprising given the number of styles and schools who do the same or similar material/curriculum.
Damn good lawyer to convince a judge that belt progression and technique was methodology. Was there any copyright infringement?

There was a lawsuit in our state (Premier Martial Arts, Knoxville), but it was about improper/illegal franchising practices. Damages were claimed in the 10's of millions of I recall correctly, but I do not know how it was settled.

 

[Buka]

Hey guys, is this a new thing? A common thing?

I’m talking about the NDA thing and the keeping everything secret thing.

I’ve yet to experience things like that. Maybe I gotta get out more.

 

[HighKick]

Hey guys, is this a new thing? A common thing?

I’m talking about the NDA thing and the keeping everything secret thing.

I’ve yet to experience things like that. Maybe I gotta get out more.

I don't feel it is a new thing, just the next thing ambulance chasing lawyers can make a dollar off of (my wife is an attorney ).
In some states NDA's are really being challenged hard and the validity of some have been overthrown.