Would someone benefit from dropping in on your TKD school?

[Hot Lunch]

Master Shimabuku made several minor changes over the years, so the American service men who trained isshinryu with him learned a few things differently, depending on what years they were in Okinawa. The master's son and son-in-law later on also made a couple subtle changes in some kata technique. These military guys then brought back their karate to the USA and opened schools, teaching the way they were taught, each developing lineage's kata a tiny bit different from each other, yet all "correct."

If a visiting black belt from another lineage comes into my dojo, I don't care which "correct" way he does it. I've learned and done them all. I will show him how my current lineage does it and if he plans to train in my dojo for any length of time and wants a promotion, he will need to do it the way we do it. It's no big thing; an open hand block instead of an open hand strike, a backfist instead of a punch, etc. For a black belt, such changes should come easily. In fact, such flexibility in execution should be part of a black belt's skill set.

I agree with this method 100%. Ideally, this is how I would love it to go.

As a Shotokan guy, if I'm traveling and there's no Shotokan available to me - but there's Wado-ryu, Shindo jinen-ryu/Ryobu-kai, Tang Soo Do, or Soo Bahk Do available (the closest styles to Shotokan) - I'd love to be able to drop in and do things the Shotokan way as long as I'm keeping up with the pace of the rest of the class. I'll wear a white belt if they ask me to, as long as they allow me to join in any kata they're doing that I know.

Of course, I don't know if it would ever go like that or anything close to it. There is a Tang Soo Do dojang in a town that I travel to about 2 to 3 times a year, and I may try to do a drop-in the next time I'm in town.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm assuming you're not a musician. Pretty much every performance is slightly different.

1. Slightly different is not the issue
2. All analogies are slightly different than the point they are trying to illustrate.
3. "Slight" is impossible to quantify but again I submit that "Slight " difference is not the issue.
4. Suppose the person thinks they are performing the technique according to the Text standard, but in fact they are not. The "Difference" is not slight but renders the technique inapplicable to the text purpose they think they are following. Simply a difference or is it wrong?
5. Lot's try another analogy. Someone performs a pattern technique "Different" technique differently than according to the "Textbook" parameters, and the textbook specifies the purpose of the technique. Not only does the technique not accomplish what the textbook says it should but if you ask the performer what the purpose of the technique is and then you ask the to demonstrate how it works and their attempt to do so clearly establishes the technique will not accomplish their stated goal. Is that merely a "Difference" or is it wrong.

 

[Buka]

What made it work?

It’s a long story, a long complicated answer that I’ll get back to. I’m both lazy and busy right now. I don’t mind the lazy part, don’t care much for the busy.

 

[Dirty Dog]

1. Slightly different is not the issue

Slightly different is different.

2. All analogies are slightly different than the point they are trying to illustrate.

Sure, you can only push an analogy so far.

3. "Slight" is impossible to quantify but again I submit that "Slight " difference is not the issue.

Then you pretty much need to figure out a way to quantify "slight"...

4. Suppose the person thinks they are performing the technique according to the Text standard, but in fact they are not. The "Difference" is not slight but renders the technique inapplicable to the text purpose they think they are following. Simply a difference or is it wrong?

See? You CAN quantify "slight".

5. Lot's try another analogy. Someone performs a pattern technique "Different" technique differently than according to the "Textbook" parameters, and the textbook specifies the purpose of the technique. Not only does the technique not accomplish what the textbook says it should but if you ask the performer what the purpose of the technique is and then you ask the to demonstrate how it works and their attempt to do so clearly establishes the technique will not accomplish their stated goal. Is that merely a "Difference" or is it wrong.

Then I will repeat my original statement. If they're doing forms, they need to be done to the standard of the system. If they're doing something else, like sparring, I expect the techniques to be modified to fit the circumstances.
But if they're a drop-in, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy on it regardless.

 

[Earl Weiss]

4. Suppose the person thinks they are performing the technique according to the Text standard, but in fact they are not. The "Difference" is not slight but renders the technique inapplicable to the text purpose they think they are following. Simply a difference or is it wrong?

See? You CAN quantify "slight".

Actually that quantifies what is most definitely not "Slight" but what is wrong. Stating what is not a dog, does not describe what a dog is.

 

[Earl Weiss]

See? You CAN quantify "slight".

Then I will repeat my original statement. If they're doing forms, they need to be done to the standard of the system. If they're doing something else, like sparring, I expect the techniques to be modified to fit the circumstances.
But if they're a drop-in, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy on it regardless.

Seems you have partly described what is "Wrong" - anything not to the pattern standard of a system. Now the problem becomes who or what gets to identify the standard. More problematic is someone who is unaware what they have been taught does not conform to a standard, or worse yet does not accomplish the purpose they think it is supposed to accomplish.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Then I will repeat my original statement. If they're doing forms, they need to be done to the standard of the system. If they're doing something else, like sparring, I expect the techniques to be modified to fit the circumstances.
But if they're a drop-in, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy on it regardless.

Similarly for me -- unless the person believes they adhere to the same system. Some years ago had a transfer student and I corrected something. His response was some thing to the effect. "My instructor (from Back home in another country) is Sum Dum Guy an 8th Dan (I think I was 7th at the time) and he says this is the way to do it and he is the "Personal Student of General Choi".

I didn't say anything but next class I returned with a copy of the relevant pages from General Choi's text. (Which Proved me right) As I handed them to him I said "Book written by 9th Dan - Your instructor loses. " He was more open minded after that.

 

[Buka]

What made it work?

I didn’t mean to blow you off the other day, I was juggling a bunch of things. Sorry.

Anyway, it was the way he taught, the floor he had and what he went through growing up.

The TKD katas were traditional. And from what I gathered were exact. At least they seemed to be to the TKD walk ins. There were walk ins all the time at his place.

There were questions at times, of course, different schools with slightly different katas. Billy told them to do the kata the way they were taught, but try this way as well to broaden your understanding. The differences were minor to my eyes, but, I don’t know anything about Kata.

Billy was big on teaching fighting techniques. Big on teaching fitness.

He always told people “If you’re not maximizing your physical fitness in order to train TKD, or any other Martial Art, you’re not taking full advantage of what the Art has to offer.

Sometimes he’d pick a technique, let’s say a side kick. Then he’d spend all week on sidekicks. Front leg defensive side kicks. Fake front leg side kicks into a hook or a roundhouse. Back leg (quarter turn) side kicks, back leg side kicks with a slide of the base foot, fall away side kicks. (I find fall away side kicks to be a lot of fun, especially if you’re strong. And you should be strong if you’re training in a fighting art.)

Step up side kicks, all variations of them. (Crossing behind, in front, or feet coming together then kicking) drop side kicks (sliding in as the opponent kicks, and kicking up to the groin. To me, if you’re a kicker, and you don’t know how to instinctively protect your groin, you ain’t gonna be a kicker for very long.

Step up sidekicks to change attitude - if you have a powerful step up side kick, and have even a decent understanding of timing, your kicks - key word from above being powerful - should shock the person blocking or evading your kick.

You train those kicks in class and on your own at home.
You hone them and build the physicalities necessary to make them nasty.

Then you and your dojo buddies train to counter it. Or to block it.
Redirect it.
To slip it.
To evade it.
To shove it where the sun don’t shine.

Another thing he had was the best floor I’ve ever trained on. Which he built himself.
He put down eight x four sturdy styrofoam type pieces. (They weren’t styrofoam, but kind of looked like them) He taped them together with wide, industrial tape. Covered the whole floor with them, then framed them in with two by fours and screwed them down tight to the underfloor.

Then he covered them with thick, indoor/outdoor carpeting and thick stapled the carpet to the two by fours.

It wasn’t in the least bit bouncy, but when you were doing aerial techniques and screwed up, it was the nicest thing to land on I’ve ever experienced.

As for him growing up. Billy couldn’t read. Tried hard to in school, but just couldn’t get it, it didn’t make sense to him. He was a quiet kid anyway, and the teachers and principle thought he was special needs. He rode on the short bus to school with the other special needs kids for a few years and took classes with them.

Turns out he was severely dyslexic. This was a long time ago and very little was known about dyslexia.

And this was in dirt poor Eerie Pennsylvania, which didn’t help matters much.

Once he started working with someone with a background in teaching dyslexic students everything changed.

He told me it gave him great patience in teaching, especially teaching complex techniques. And that showed in the abilities of his students.

There’s another big part of this story that concerns a kangaroo court, but this post is long enough as it is.

 

[Earl Weiss]

.......................
The TKD katas were traditional. And from what I gathered were exact. At least they seemed to be to the TKD walk ins. There were walk ins all the time at his place.

..................

Makes sense since he was a progeny of Park Jong Soo who in turn was a progeny of Nam Tae Hi - All Chung do Kwan guys as were various others in the USA in the early 1970's. such as Jhoon Rhee, He Il Cho, HU Lee, and Han Cha Kyo. since KKW / WT did not exist until 1974 or so and even then many of the the early guys were ITF converts, it you were doing TK-D you were all pretty much on the same page except as you said for some differences as to what they taught because they adapted the Chang Hon forms to their CDK habits.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've never had any problems from drop ins. Every drop in I knew understood that the school would have things that are similar and that it would also have the personal preferences of the Chief Instructor in that school.

There is an assumption that most people who are dropping in are looking for the same thing they get at their own school. I think most people who drop in are looking for two things.
1. Something they are familiar with
2. Satisfy the curiosity and thrill of seeing how another school does it.

As an instructor I never told a drop in that "They were doing it wrong" First I had no qualification to say that and two. That's a good way to set yourself up for some serious issues when someone higher than you drops in as a secret visit then returning home to tell of story of how one Instructor felt he knew better than his seniors

As an instructor. I always positioned the school to say, "This is how it is taught at our school." That statement can be justified or even marked as "a preference of the teacher" Telling someone that they are wrong just leads into troubled waters.

Real Experience - There were things I did in Jow Ga that were seen as "Wrong" in the eyes of some Jow Ga teachers and instructors. Those same things that I was criticized for being "Wrong" are things that I see done now as a standard and part of the training. Some of the things that I did on my own were (unknowingly to me) considered old school training that was no longer being done in many schools.

Sometimes schools can also learn from drop ins. Drop ins are often there long enough to share small bits of information and perspectives that other schools can benefit from. The school just has to just throw away their ego and be willing to accept information as information and not be so defensive about it.

 

[J. Pickard]

My dojang has drop ins from time to time. We don't work technique, but rather concept and live drilling. I try to give them something they can take back to their own school to improve their own art. I don't try to get them to do my art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never had any problems from drop ins.

I had problem with some drop ins. A Judo instructor dropped in my class. During the wrestling match,

- When he tried to grab me, I used "tearing" with soft punch on his shoulder, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "knee seize" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "leg twisting" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "inner leg blocking" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".

I have never seen him after that match.

This is the "inner leg blocking". I didn't know it's illegal move in Judo back then.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I had problem with some drop ins. A Judo instructor dropped in my class. During the wrestling match,

- When he tried to grab me, I used "tearing" with soft punch on his shoulder, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "knee seize" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "leg twisting" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "inner leg blocking" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".

I have never seen him after that match.

This is the "inner leg blocking". I didn't know it's illegal move in Judo back then.

View attachment 31512

That's the example of the drop in not understanding where they are. They went to your school thinking that you should follow Judo rules. That was the Judo guy's problem. If I go to a store that bakes chicken, then I shouldn't complain that the way they cook is not how to bake cake.

If he wanted to learn something that would be legal in Judo then he should have started off by asking you that first.

 

[Earl Weiss]

As an instructor I never told a drop in that "They were doing it wrong" First I had no qualification to say that and two. That's a good way to set yourself up for some serious issues when someone higher than you drops in as a secret visit then returning home to tell of story of how one Instructor felt he knew better than his seniors

There is a 2 prong approach to this. 1. "The speech" Students are told when they drop in or when invited to teach at a school that under no circumstances are they to tell their instructor that they are doing it wrong because I taught something else. However they should try what I am teaching to get the most from the lesson and if they aa relationship with their instructor where they can discuss things privately perhaps they should do that; and 2. They need to execute techniques how their instructor advises.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I had problem with some drop ins. A Judo instructor dropped in my class. During the wrestling match,

- When he tried to grab me, I used "tearing" with soft punch on his shoulder, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "knee seize" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "leg twisting" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "inner leg blocking" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".

I have never seen him after that match.

This is the "inner leg blocking". I didn't know it's illegal move in Judo back then.

View attachment 31512

If he was complaining rather than just noting “how interesting, we don’t get to do those moves in our competitions”, then he was being very silly. What kind of doofus visits a school for a different martial art/combat sport and expects the rules to be the same as in their own system?

 

[isshinryuronin]

I had problem with some drop ins. A Judo instructor dropped in my class. During the wrestling match,

- When he tried to grab me, I used "tearing" with soft punch on his shoulder, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "knee seize" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "leg twisting" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".
- I used "inner leg blocking" on him, he said, "It's illegal move".

I have never seen him after that match.

I have had a similar experience, a ref telling me this several times during my first karate tournament in 45 years. Sweep followed by a landed body punch - "illegal." A landed roundhouse kick (brilliantly set up) across the belt - "illegal." Maneuvering to the back and landing a punch to the back of the head - "illegal." This was all my best stuff.

That was also my last tournament. All the fun seems to have gone out of sparring.

 

[skribs]

I have had a similar experience, a ref telling me this several times during my first karate tournament in 45 years. Sweep followed by a landed body punch - "illegal." A landed roundhouse kick (brilliantly set up) across the belt - "illegal." Maneuvering to the back and landing a punch to the back of the head - "illegal." This was all my best stuff.

That was also my last tournament. All the fun seems to have gone out of sparring.

That's kind of on you. Read the rules first.

 

[isshinryuronin]

That's kind of on you. Read the rules first.

It was supposed to be "traditional" tournament. I guess my concept of traditional is now seen as ancient. The ref did not review the rules as they used to, so I just went ahead and did my thing. While I didn't get many points, I did good and showed them the old guy can still go toe to toe. I hadn't really sparred in over 4 decades (maybe 15 minutes total). The main goal was to test how my solo karate practice stood up to long time active tournament fighters. I got my answer and was well satisfied with my performance. No need to think about any more competitions - or rules.

 

[skribs]

It was supposed to be "traditional" tournament. I guess my concept of traditional is now seen as ancient. The ref did not review the rules as they used to, so I just went ahead and did my thing. While I didn't get many points, I did good and showed them the old guy can still go toe to toe. I hadn't really sparred in over 4 decades (maybe 15 minutes total). The main goal was to test how my solo karate practice stood up to long time active tournament fighters. I got my answer and was well satisfied with my performance. No need to think about any more competitions - or rules.

I honestly find this attitude shocking from someone so experienced in TMA. Just assume what the rules are and then complain when your assumptions were wrong? Not very disciplined IMO.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I honestly find this attitude shocking from someone so experienced in TMA. Just assume what the rules are and then complain when your assumptions were wrong? Not very disciplined IMO.

I guess the younger generation shocks easily. I took no offense from your post. It kind of tickled me. I did come with the required hand pads (a major concession on my part). Not sure how you got the "complaining" vibe. You are looking at this from a viewpoint/mindset much different from my own. "Points" were not the point . I was there to test myself. You can re-read the post, but I'll quote the most relevant part:

The main goal was to test how my solo karate practice stood up to long time active tournament fighters. I got my answer and was well satisfied with my performance.

Landing strikes using traditional Okinawan methods was more satisfying than playing the modern tournament game of points. I only regret I didn't get a chance for a takedown (probably also "illegal" but what the heck). I was very "disciplined" in the execution of my tactics and technique.

Perhaps our disconnect is due to the time period I was competing as a young black belt (I didn't see ANY blood during this competition) or perhaps my advanced years in the art and life is responsible for my "shocking attitude." Perhaps as you delve deeper into TMA and some of its philosophical concepts over the next 20 or 30 years you will come to understand my position. There is always another side to things.