How Frequently Do You Test for Belts?

terryl965

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TF is just kidding I hope, the test should be challanging. Your test is a greatone. I also do not understand where people say no ground inTKD. I understand from the sport but from someone that is doing American or Joon Rhee system should have some ground work.
 

terryl965

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way too much crap, and most of it isnt needed for a gold belt in TKD

This is what I see as wrong, too many people do not want a test jsut something basic. What happened to be challenge during a test and just for the record I never saw any crap on the test just alot of hardwork.....
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Twin Fist

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Terry, i am not kidding.

Look, too much material on a gold belt test is usually just way to stretch out the time between belts to collect as much in monthly dues as possible.

its GOLD BELT

it shouldnt be much,and what is included should be more or less simple.

and mind you, i have A LOT on my gold belt requirements. But even by my standards, this is simply too much.

you want a challenging test? then grade harder or make them fight more. Dont just heap more and more material on them. That isnt a challenge, it is a waste of students time.

exercises like crunches are not a challenge, they are a waste of time.
 
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dancingalone

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TF,

I'll answer your comments in more detail this morning.

*warm ups and exercises have no place on tests


IMO, they absolutely do. The better tests are stress-based rather than being a mere regurgitation of material. Fatiguing students to an extent before testing them is one way to inducing that stress. Besides, as a program with a goal of producing physical fitness, periodic physical benchmarks at a formal occasion like a belt test are very appropriate.

*arm hardening exercises 1-3
*again, too advanced for gold belt, and dont need to be demonstrated


Not sure why this would be considered too advanced. It just banging your arms against each other. It takes nothing to do other than a tolerance for some discomfort. And it needs to be demonstrated because it is considered to be a basic building block to making your blocks and strikes effective later on.

*thats a crap ton of one steps for a FIRST belt

5 one steps are a lot? That's awfully standard in my opinion.

*no place for this crap in TKD really, and at gold? no way

Addressed above. Short version is that my vision of TKD is that of a fairly complete fighting system. Many past TKD pioneers had formal training in judo which undoubtedly made them better fighters. This is just a modern reconstruction of the same idea using source material from judo, jujutsu, wrestling, and eventually some concepts/techniques aikido.

*at gold belt they can barely DO a kata much less three of them

I agree it is ambitious and that I set the bar high in this respect. I'm not expecting miracles at first. They just need to be able to perform the patterns along with demonstrating the specified overt applications.

*Look, too much material on a gold belt test is usually just way to stretch out the time between belts to collect as much in monthly dues as possible.

It's a no fee class.

*its GOLD BELT

And then it becomes GREEN BELT and eventually BLACK BELT. Point taken, I hope? I want all the belts to be demanding in my program. Whether that is due to volume of material or difficulty of material or an expectation of a high standard can be variable.

*it shouldnt be much,and what is included should be more or less simple.


I can see that is your opinion. And that's fine.

*and mind you, i have A LOT on my gold belt requirements. But even by my standards, this is simply too much.

I've trained in systems that had only five levels (color and black ranks together) and each of the levels have had MUCH more material. You are used to less, so you like less. Neither approach is wrong.

*you want a challenging test? then grade harder or make them fight more. Dont just heap more and more material on them. That isnt a challenge, it is a waste of students time.

What makes you think it is not possible to grade to an high standard while also having a good repertoire of requirements? There is no guarantee anyone will be allowed to test. Only when they are ready. If that takes only six months, outstanding! If longer, that's OK also.

And I don't think any of this material is a waste of time. Far from it actually.

As for 'fighting', I support sparring as a drill. However, I don't intend to ask the students to spar until they have advanced a few belt levels and have attained a good understanding of what the system's principles and methods are. This will hopefully make them better fighters eventually rather than just good sparr-ers.

*exercises like crunches are not a challenge, they are a waste of time.

See above.
 

terryl965

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Really exorcise are a waste of time, well maybe that is whay so many childern I see are out of shape when they come to me, for the most part TKD is about a life journey not just self defense and physical fitness is needed for everyone life journey we as martial artist know that all too well. Just a year ago you was preaching about test should be this and that now it seem you would like to have an easier test. Just because someone is only teasting a few times a year does not mean they are looking for monthy dues like you said, dancingalone and his friend do not even charge anything though this church program so the requirements are not based on money but instead what he and the other gentleman feels need to be tought prior to testing. I fthat means a long test than so be it.

Just for the record I thought it was a little long myself but that is me and what I expect, he is doing what he knows and how he was tought. Remember we are all mirror images of our Master's in one way or another.
 
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dancingalone

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To be fair I believe Twin Fist and I came up in the same system of TKD, more or less. My experience with my own TKD training was that it was sparse on techniques, especially short range ones. On the other hand, we sparred a lot with a high level of contact and we blended in some boxing, so we could punch and we valued toughness in the dojo. This curriculum reflects somewhat of a redirection from that type of TKD. I value the tough training aspect, but I also think more tools are needed and should be taught.
 

Gorilla

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Nothing livens a thread more than a good Twin Fist post.

I rarely agree but it sure makes for a good thread.

Like I have said I like your comprehensive Yellow Belt Test when they are able to complete it they will have a strong foundation for the next belt. Based on everything that I have read(dancingalone) quality wont be sacrificed for quantity

Anyone who has been posting on this forum for even a short time would recognize that dancingalone is not in this for fees.

Declaring that someone is in it for the $ seems to be far to easy a tag to put on someone when they disagree.

By the way some of us need to do allot more crunches myself included!!!!
 

terryl965

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To be fair I believe Twin Fist and I came up in the same system of TKD, more or less. My experience with my own TKD training was that it was sparse on techniques, especially short range ones. On the other hand, we sparred a lot with a high level of contact and we blended in some boxing, so we could punch and we valued toughness in the dojo. This curriculum reflects somewhat of a redirection from that type of TKD. I value the tough training aspect, but I also think more tools are needed and should be taught.

Dancingalone I believe me you and TF come up though some of the old realm here in Texas, I do not think for a minute that anyone of us did not base on our ages. So with that in mind we all have been touched by some true Master in the art of TKD but each of us imterpeted what we believe to be what is best for us and our programs. I will just add this GM Kurban sponsod GM Parks to come to the US everybody knows that GM Kurban and GM Parks are best friends and have each others back when need be, but also they both come form two different approaches to TKD with GM Park backing the Olympic style alot and GM Kurban with the Point aspect. Niether one wrong just diferent but yet on the same page, I believe we are all on the same page just different like them.
 

Twin Fist

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exercises like crunches are a waste of time ON A TEST. do them in class till they puke, but on a test? waste of time
 

Twin Fist

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ok, you want them stressed? be known for being a HARD grader. mission accomplished. And if you REQUIRE a certain level of fitness, congrats, you just lost all the students that have physical limitations...

Body conditioning is NOT for white belts, so they should never even know it when testing for gold, IMO. if you make them do it, fine, but dont waste time making them do it on a test.

NO one steps for gold, TWO for orange, and two more per belt till the need 20 at 1st black

thats how i came up and thats how i teach now

you add judo? fine, i added kenpo, whatever works. But there isnt any kenpo for my GOLD BELTS

I would rather they do ONE kata well than three half ***

ALL martial arts are fighting (or should be) and in the end, thats what we teach, how to beat up the other guy better and faster than he beats you up. If you aint down with fighting, and fighting a LOT, you are teaching dancing rather than fighting

IMO
 

Twin Fist

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To be fair I believe Twin Fist and I came up in the same system of TKD, more or less. My experience with my own TKD training was that it was sparse on techniques, especially short range ones. On the other hand, we sparred a lot with a high level of contact and we blended in some boxing, so we could punch and we valued toughness in the dojo. This curriculum reflects somewhat of a redirection from that type of TKD. I value the tough training aspect, but I also think more tools are needed and should be taught.


absolutely true

why i added kenpo
 

Bruno@MT

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exercises like crunches are a waste of time ON A TEST. do them in class till they puke, but on a test? waste of time

+1.

This was what I was going to say, but you saved me the effort :)

The sensei is not performing a blind test. He knows the student, and presumably the student would not be allowed to test if he is not up to whatever standard. So with that in mind, I agree is IS a waste of time.

Even if you want fatigued students, simply test at the end of a class.
 
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dancingalone

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exercises like crunches are a waste of time ON A TEST. do them in class till they puke, but on a test? waste of time

Sounds like it is just a matter of opinion. I haven't read anything here or in Bruno's post to argue otherwise. <shrugs> Potato, potatoe. Tomato, tomatoe.
 
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dancingalone

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ok, you want them stressed? be known for being a HARD grader. mission accomplished. And if you REQUIRE a certain level of fitness, congrats, you just lost all the students that have physical limitations...

Body conditioning is NOT for white belts, so they should never even know it when testing for gold, IMO. if you make them do it, fine, but dont waste time making them do it on a test.

NO one steps for gold, TWO for orange, and two more per belt till the need 20 at 1st black

thats how i came up and thats how i teach now

you add judo? fine, i added kenpo, whatever works. But there isnt any kenpo for my GOLD BELTS

I would rather they do ONE kata well than three half ***

All opinion, so I really don't have anything new to add in response.

ALL martial arts are fighting (or should be) and in the end, thats what we teach, how to beat up the other guy better and faster than he beats you up. If you aint down with fighting, and fighting a LOT, you are teaching dancing rather than fighting
You misunderstand me. I do believe in training how to fight. However sparring is only 1 tool or drill to that end. Sparring is NOT fighting. It cannot be, given that these are our dojo mates rather than our mortal enemies. It cannot be, since we can only execute a fraction of the techniques we train to a fraction of the targets at hand.

Now, sparring is invaluable for practicing certain things like distancing, reaction time, striking precision, and tai sabaki, so it MUST be utilized in training frequently when the students are ready for it. But I repeat, it is NOT fighting. To train how to fight, you need to install a full range of skills and make them instinctive. You also need to condition the body so that even a less than precise strike can still be strong enough to end a fight. This is where things like extended pattern application work comes in. Or mat skills. Or body conditioning. They all play a role and they are at least as important as is sparring.

Perhaps I should clarify why I don't have white belts spar (or likely yellow and orange belts either). It is because I do not believe they have formed instinctive reactionary patterns yet at this stage of their martial arts development. Sparring then becomes an exercise in aggression and whomever can string together more than 1 shot, no matter how inprecise, likely gains the advantage. I believe one is better off if one can develop strong technique first along with sensitivity and timing through isolated drills. That way when one does start sparring, one has better tools to work with, and the sparring should in fact be better, embodying more of the principles and techniques of the system, rather than it being a simply back and forth kick fest.
 
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