Women's aversion to Wing Chun?
- Thread starter Si-Je
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Si-Je
Master Black Belt
I'll expound...
We commonly get women in class only AFTER they have been violated in some horrible manner.
These women seem to know right away what will and will not work in reality. And tend to come to us after they've "tried" many other more popular arts.
Does one have to be so dis-illusioned before we can teach her?
Cannot women see the effectiveness of WC before they are experienced in a real confrontation?
And if not, how can we demonstrate or "advertise" to women in a manner that will interest them?
I just wish I could get these ladies in class before they get hurt, or scarred for life.
We commonly get women in class only AFTER they have been violated in some horrible manner.
These women seem to know right away what will and will not work in reality. And tend to come to us after they've "tried" many other more popular arts.
Does one have to be so dis-illusioned before we can teach her?
Cannot women see the effectiveness of WC before they are experienced in a real confrontation?
And if not, how can we demonstrate or "advertise" to women in a manner that will interest them?
I just wish I could get these ladies in class before they get hurt, or scarred for life.
Why do you think what you are finding is because due to WC?
I've seen alot of people come into kenpo and into a couple FMA from a other arts. Yes, some of these women have been violated, yes some of them have studied other things (including WC), I just assume they are looking for something that works for them.
I do think that if you are attacked and got your *** handed to you, you'd probably go looking for something else.
I've seen alot of people come into kenpo and into a couple FMA from a other arts. Yes, some of these women have been violated, yes some of them have studied other things (including WC), I just assume they are looking for something that works for them.
I do think that if you are attacked and got your *** handed to you, you'd probably go looking for something else.
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
Women are favoring harder styles because they don't know much about Wing Chun. Wing Chun is not widely known to the mundane as Karate or Muay Thai is. Tae Kwon do is third most unknown. I think Wing Chun is like the tenth widely unknown. But people all know Boxing first, karate second, Kickboxing third, Muay Thai fourth, Tae Kwon Do fifth, Judo is also around second to be known. Aikido is like fifth too. If you say Kung Fu thats first. But if you say something like Bagua zhang or Choy Li Fut or Long Fist the average person ain't gonna know what you talking about. My Sifu told me he was going to train in Wing Chun. When I was sixteen all i knew was five animals and five elements. I wanted to learn that. My Sifu was like no, Wing Chun will be better for you and your body structure. when I first started taking Wing Chun I had no idea what it was or where it came from. My Sifu decided to train me because he said my Aikido was weak and wouldn't stand up against a real fighter. He showed me just how weak it was. He asked me to put him in a wrist lock. I couldn't do it. I tried forcing his with all my strenght the lock wouldn't take. All that training an drilling in class an a simple wrist lock wouldn't know. Of course when he was intially telling me about how Aikido doesn't work he didn't share he was a Kung Fu master. He has so much knowledge. An many of friends were great fighters too. Its a honor to be in the company of great martial artist.
But I think women feel the only way they can beat a man is by joining him. So need to find an art that makes them as hard as a man. Now for the average man if they hit him like a makiwara board they may have something. But alot of women aint hitting the makiwara board or heavy bags with significant weight in it. But wing chun has a hard side too. Most people don't realize wing chun is both hard and soft. atleast the way my sifu taught me. Also it can be used for outside fighting and inside fighting.
This is my humble opinion on why women don't choose Wing Chun...
So little is known about it too the public. The best way I see is to take some wing chun fighters challenge some hard schools women are going too. Beat their top students and go to atleast one school each month in your state for like three years. Then Wing Chun will ring out in ears of many women and men as force not to reckon with. An Presto Chango you have women saying I want to learn what do you call it? Wing chun? Can you teach me that?
But I think women feel the only way they can beat a man is by joining him. So need to find an art that makes them as hard as a man. Now for the average man if they hit him like a makiwara board they may have something. But alot of women aint hitting the makiwara board or heavy bags with significant weight in it. But wing chun has a hard side too. Most people don't realize wing chun is both hard and soft. atleast the way my sifu taught me. Also it can be used for outside fighting and inside fighting.
This is my humble opinion on why women don't choose Wing Chun...
So little is known about it too the public. The best way I see is to take some wing chun fighters challenge some hard schools women are going too. Beat their top students and go to atleast one school each month in your state for like three years. Then Wing Chun will ring out in ears of many women and men as force not to reckon with. An Presto Chango you have women saying I want to learn what do you call it? Wing chun? Can you teach me that?
What happens if the fighters lose?
mook jong man
Senior Master
I agree with every thing that has been said , but in Australia we always had a lot of women in our classes in the city headquarters , but I did notice something very much like a domino effect when I was running a suburban branch .
If you had a group of women already in the class , and a prospective women student came in to have a look she would join up . But if you slowly lost all those women due to their work committments , pregnancy etc whatever then any women that come in and saw just a bunch of men training would very rarely join up .
Its a bit like you gotta have money to make money . What you need is like a rent a crowd of women in there , get all your female relatives together or pay some actors or something , then any potential women student that stops by will think
" Gee look at all those gals in there they look like their having fun and losing cellulite off their female fat zones , I better join up too ". I know all the terminology , my wife has every Denise Austin and Billy Blanks dvd known to mankind .
If you had a group of women already in the class , and a prospective women student came in to have a look she would join up . But if you slowly lost all those women due to their work committments , pregnancy etc whatever then any women that come in and saw just a bunch of men training would very rarely join up .
Its a bit like you gotta have money to make money . What you need is like a rent a crowd of women in there , get all your female relatives together or pay some actors or something , then any potential women student that stops by will think
" Gee look at all those gals in there they look like their having fun and losing cellulite off their female fat zones , I better join up too ". I know all the terminology , my wife has every Denise Austin and Billy Blanks dvd known to mankind .
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
IF The loose that means they need to train harder, Spar more and challenge more people outside their school until they learn what they doing wrong an start winning.
With Wing Chun it was always the skilled fighters who had students. Atleast in history it was. Things are more commericalize now. But I think the old ways are best.
With Wing Chun it was always the skilled fighters who had students. Atleast in history it was. Things are more commericalize now. But I think the old ways are best.
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
This is so true. I don't think your lying at all...Thats sounds like a great marketing idea. In Fact some Wing Chun Schools have separate women classes that are taught by women. lol...
I saw a link the other day.
I saw a link the other day.
I agree with every thing that has been said , but in Australia we always had a lot of women in our classes in the city headquarters , but I did notice something very much like a domino effect when I was running a suburban branch .
If you had a group of women already in the class , and a prospective women student came in to have a look she would join up . But if you slowly lost all those women due to their work committments , pregnancy etc whatever then any women that come in and saw just a bunch of men training would very rarely join up .
Its a bit like you gotta have money to make money . What you need is like a rent a crowd of women in there , get all your female relatives together or pay some actors or something , then any potential women student that stops by will think
" Gee look at all those gals in there they look like their having fun and losing cellulite off their female fat zones , I better join up too ". I know all the terminology , my wife has every Denise Austin and Billy Blanks dvd known to mankind .
mook jong man
Senior Master
I really don't think going around challenging other schools is the way to go Yosh mate .
I reckon you would just come across as looking like a thug , look at the Tae Kwon Do model they don't go around challenging other schools and look how many women they've got .
Its all in the marketing mate , they have it down to a fine art and we don't as simple as that .
I reckon you would just come across as looking like a thug , look at the Tae Kwon Do model they don't go around challenging other schools and look how many women they've got .
Its all in the marketing mate , they have it down to a fine art and we don't as simple as that .
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
Challenges should be friendly challenges. Set up by indiviual sifu's and allotted a days in advance. I am not saying show at a school and be Like:
"I challenge you aha fight me now or pay aha!!!!"
No Challenges should be given in advance. For instance you tell a Sifu that their art is very good. You want to see how well your students can stand up to their top students in sparring match or fight depending on the school. This what will give your students the experience they need. Thats the problem in America we don't do that. I believe Yip Man did that didn't he. Thats how come his name so big. Also Wong Shun Leung did the same thing. So get some challenges, Exhibitions sparring matches going. This what Wing Chun is lacking. If you have challenges than the students have something real to train for oppose to maybe I might get jumped or mugged an then i can use my wing chun? Huh?
Do a search on the fights and challenges of:
Yip Man
Sum Nung
Bruce Lee
Wong Shun Leung
Yuen Kay San
etc etc.
"I challenge you aha fight me now or pay aha!!!!"
No Challenges should be given in advance. For instance you tell a Sifu that their art is very good. You want to see how well your students can stand up to their top students in sparring match or fight depending on the school. This what will give your students the experience they need. Thats the problem in America we don't do that. I believe Yip Man did that didn't he. Thats how come his name so big. Also Wong Shun Leung did the same thing. So get some challenges, Exhibitions sparring matches going. This what Wing Chun is lacking. If you have challenges than the students have something real to train for oppose to maybe I might get jumped or mugged an then i can use my wing chun? Huh?
Do a search on the fights and challenges of:
Yip Man
Sum Nung
Bruce Lee
Wong Shun Leung
Yuen Kay San
etc etc.
mook jong man
Senior Master
That was a different era mate , these days everybodies litigation happy , people even sue Mcdonalds if they burn there mouth on a hot cup of coffee ( like wow ,what a surprise who would have thought coffee would be hot )
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
Okay you miss what I am saying. I am not saying you go to school an start a fight...
I am saying you set up a challenge or exhibtion match ahead of time. If the sifu says no find another school or sifu until one says yes. You don't force them to spar. You don't go an assualt people. You don't use your Art to be a bully or terror to other schools. You asked permission. If they say no find someone else. If they say schedule a day you and your top students can come in an spar with some of the other students. It was actually done here in St.Louis awhile back. Thats why Wing Chun is so popular among certain martial artist.
At the Tai Chi class there are people who come to challenge. But most of the people they end up challenging or Karate and Wing Chun masters. But see they believe Tai Chi is the only style the people know there. So they usually get their face handed to them. But thats because they try to challenge people on mastery level instead of beginners. Some people who are beginners in Tai Chi are not beginners in fighting! lol...
My Sihing went to a few schools an challenge sifus for friendly sparring match. Some Sifu's get arrogant an try an fight for real. Other simply trade techniques an have mutal respect. I haven't challenge anyone in like 12 years. But in the pass when I was in high school I did because I wanted to know how well I progress. There was only one person I couldn't beat. But go figure he had ten to twelve years on me! But I challenge him six months in. I think then he had a decade. So that was like about 15 years ago. But actually I didn't really challenge him. My Sidai kinda got that started. I was unsuspecting victim in the whole thing. I think one time the guy got mad at me. Because He tried to kick me I block with hanging horse. He hit my shin and then back away rubbing his shin like Shiish that hurt. Then after that he started going full force. At first it was light contact then it change. From that point I realize even when sparring with people you know well always be on guard. In other words treat it as if it is real fight but do not intentionally try to hurt them or use too much force yourself. Just be ready for anything!
I need to find some martial artist to challenge in St.louis now. So i can home my skills.
I am saying you set up a challenge or exhibtion match ahead of time. If the sifu says no find another school or sifu until one says yes. You don't force them to spar. You don't go an assualt people. You don't use your Art to be a bully or terror to other schools. You asked permission. If they say no find someone else. If they say schedule a day you and your top students can come in an spar with some of the other students. It was actually done here in St.Louis awhile back. Thats why Wing Chun is so popular among certain martial artist.
At the Tai Chi class there are people who come to challenge. But most of the people they end up challenging or Karate and Wing Chun masters. But see they believe Tai Chi is the only style the people know there. So they usually get their face handed to them. But thats because they try to challenge people on mastery level instead of beginners. Some people who are beginners in Tai Chi are not beginners in fighting! lol...
My Sihing went to a few schools an challenge sifus for friendly sparring match. Some Sifu's get arrogant an try an fight for real. Other simply trade techniques an have mutal respect. I haven't challenge anyone in like 12 years. But in the pass when I was in high school I did because I wanted to know how well I progress. There was only one person I couldn't beat. But go figure he had ten to twelve years on me! But I challenge him six months in. I think then he had a decade. So that was like about 15 years ago. But actually I didn't really challenge him. My Sidai kinda got that started. I was unsuspecting victim in the whole thing. I think one time the guy got mad at me. Because He tried to kick me I block with hanging horse. He hit my shin and then back away rubbing his shin like Shiish that hurt. Then after that he started going full force. At first it was light contact then it change. From that point I realize even when sparring with people you know well always be on guard. In other words treat it as if it is real fight but do not intentionally try to hurt them or use too much force yourself. Just be ready for anything!
I need to find some martial artist to challenge in St.louis now. So i can home my skills.
mook jong man
Senior Master
Always beware of strangers that come into your school and say " I just want to do some light friendly chi sau "
I was young and naive and learnt the hard way , I got fooled once , but never again after that . BE READY FOR ANYTHING PEOPLE .
I was young and naive and learnt the hard way , I got fooled once , but never again after that . BE READY FOR ANYTHING PEOPLE .
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Si-Je
Master Black Belt
I know what your saying Yoshi. There was a Kempo school hubbie took his students to pretty regular to join in their sparring class. Very friendly.
But, this did not bring in women to the classes.
I think you are right about WC not being so well known, I'm aware of this, especially in Texas. (folks are like, "you take wang chun? isn't that a song?")
But, the real problem seems to be when they are exposed to it, or we're showing them a video of it to tell them about the art.
They love the Fung Videos, most (male and female) get nervouse when they see the Emin videos. (Every MMA guy we had come in was open to the training, until hubbie showed some emin videos, don't know why, they didn't like the agression. weird. they get points for being aggressive?!)
We did a intro class for a girl scout troop a couple of weeks back, and the girls seemed to like it okay. (I guess they were kinda forced to do the class to get their merrit badge) The three adult women were much more interested, but the girls just were like "whatever". (I got to get them before they hit 13, man. Otherwise their lost)
But, still, none have come to class.
But, this did not bring in women to the classes.
I think you are right about WC not being so well known, I'm aware of this, especially in Texas. (folks are like, "you take wang chun? isn't that a song?")
But, the real problem seems to be when they are exposed to it, or we're showing them a video of it to tell them about the art.
They love the Fung Videos, most (male and female) get nervouse when they see the Emin videos. (Every MMA guy we had come in was open to the training, until hubbie showed some emin videos, don't know why, they didn't like the agression. weird. they get points for being aggressive?!)
We did a intro class for a girl scout troop a couple of weeks back, and the girls seemed to like it okay. (I guess they were kinda forced to do the class to get their merrit badge) The three adult women were much more interested, but the girls just were like "whatever". (I got to get them before they hit 13, man. Otherwise their lost)
But, still, none have come to class.
i think its partly down to marketing and how well known some martial arts are, due to their portrail in the media... films etc.
also wc is so confrontational in its essence than say karate.
one of my main problems learning wing chun is the "point scoring" mentality i have been ingrained with... so from an outsider it would look "easier" to learn karate or similar compared to wing chun which is, from the outside looking in, up close very interpersonel and bloody hard work to learn, by comparrison!
you can get away with a dodgy roundhouse kick visually still looking good but a dodgy stance in wing chun will get you into trouble very quickly???!!??? (go figure!)
AND karate/tkd has that sporty friendly club look about it which fits in with surburbia's need to do a "defense" class.ala karate kid!!!
BUTi still love what i,m learning more than i ever did with karate.and i know even after 10months and very bad at wc i,m still better equipped to defend myself than the 10yrs of karate in its truest form.
matsu
also wc is so confrontational in its essence than say karate.
one of my main problems learning wing chun is the "point scoring" mentality i have been ingrained with... so from an outsider it would look "easier" to learn karate or similar compared to wing chun which is, from the outside looking in, up close very interpersonel and bloody hard work to learn, by comparrison!
you can get away with a dodgy roundhouse kick visually still looking good but a dodgy stance in wing chun will get you into trouble very quickly???!!??? (go figure!)
AND karate/tkd has that sporty friendly club look about it which fits in with surburbia's need to do a "defense" class.ala karate kid!!!
BUTi still love what i,m learning more than i ever did with karate.and i know even after 10months and very bad at wc i,m still better equipped to defend myself than the 10yrs of karate in its truest form.
matsu
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Si-Je
Master Black Belt
I agree other styles are more fun. I loved ju-jitsu because the guys were fun, corney, and goofey. Made the class really fun. (we trained seriously too but it was light hearted)
WC/WT classes are waaaaaay too serious. Big reason why I quit teaching with hubbie. He's so somber that class gets to feeling like a death march to me.
(he's getting better, told him he's big and intimidating, he needs to just smile more, tell a really bad, corney joke every now and then. lighten up.) That's probably why his students are military guys right now.
And, well, WC/WT is harder to learn than TKD and other styles, at first. Mainly harder if the student has taken another art, if it's their first one they get it way quicker.
Hense, should be perfect for women, since many haven't taken another art before.
Man, when I do get a gal in, she picks it up twice as fast as a guy!
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Si-Je
Master Black Belt
As for marketing,
Being a good old american slave to hype, media, and commercialism, we've got a plan to hit that one too.
People want "proof", have no "faith" or insight to make the descision themselves, fine.
He's got some MMA guys at work with him that they debate all the time the effectiveness of WC/WT against MMA or a street confrontation. He invites them to come to class and try it out for free and all. But, no.... they want a video first!
How we gonna get that if all the big guys we come across won't "pose for the camera", much less come to play with hubbie?
Women seem to have the exact same mentality.
Someone has told them they have to fight like a man to beat a man. So they buy into the, you have to test it in the cage, get some videos, whatever, proof first.
Last night hubbie was training for cage match with a personal weight trainer. There is this group of women I've been trying to talk into trying the class that work out there (it's at the rec. center, our class is right next door!)
Not a peep from them, they just shake their head and walk off. But they watch me and hubbie train through the window every time! What's the deal? The door's open, walk in! ack!
Oh, when they hear hubbie and trainer talking about preparing for a cage fight, NOW they're dying to talk to me about learning!!!!
What the..... ***** is that? I'm NOT competing!
But, it's the way to market now, as much as it irritates me to no end. I don't want to teach women WC/WT under cage rules! I want to teach them the GOOOOD stuff!
Being a good old american slave to hype, media, and commercialism, we've got a plan to hit that one too.
People want "proof", have no "faith" or insight to make the descision themselves, fine.
He's got some MMA guys at work with him that they debate all the time the effectiveness of WC/WT against MMA or a street confrontation. He invites them to come to class and try it out for free and all. But, no.... they want a video first!
How we gonna get that if all the big guys we come across won't "pose for the camera", much less come to play with hubbie?
Women seem to have the exact same mentality.
Someone has told them they have to fight like a man to beat a man. So they buy into the, you have to test it in the cage, get some videos, whatever, proof first.
Last night hubbie was training for cage match with a personal weight trainer. There is this group of women I've been trying to talk into trying the class that work out there (it's at the rec. center, our class is right next door!)
Not a peep from them, they just shake their head and walk off. But they watch me and hubbie train through the window every time! What's the deal? The door's open, walk in! ack!
Oh, when they hear hubbie and trainer talking about preparing for a cage fight, NOW they're dying to talk to me about learning!!!!
What the..... ***** is that? I'm NOT competing!
But, it's the way to market now, as much as it irritates me to no end. I don't want to teach women WC/WT under cage rules! I want to teach them the GOOOOD stuff!
its not about the marketing you do, its about what has been done before you thus far...... movies films tv shows adverts, they all show kjarate /tkd/kempo as "THE " martial art.
so everyone all now assume that thats the placer to go.... and therefore....... if wing chun or any other style was any good it would be within that previous bracket being marketed!
i understand you fustration.and what ever youre doing is better than nothing and will help long term but just dont hold ya breath
matsu
so everyone all now assume that thats the placer to go.... and therefore....... if wing chun or any other style was any good it would be within that previous bracket being marketed!
i understand you fustration.and what ever youre doing is better than nothing and will help long term but just dont hold ya breath
matsu
