Winning in Martial Arts: Mind Set or Skill Set?

[kidswarrior]

It came to me recently in thinking about a Youtube clip from another thread in which a MMA fighter uses the straight blast effectively and repeatedly to drive his opponent across the ring, Why didn't the 'loser' just step out of the way. Why did he help the attacker by backing straight up? In fancy MA terms, we call this tactic of moving out of the way, stepping off the center line. Then of course, it's much easier to counter attack. Imo and experience, this works, by the way.

But I think the guy getting the beating didn't do this because he had a certain mindset. I'm not saying his skills were as good as the attackers, but whoever set up the fight must have thought they were close, or it wouldn't
have gotten a draw. So, I think in this case the loss was more one of the wrong mind set.

Anyway, I won't prejudice the poll any further by saying more. Instead, I'd like to hear from you. Do you think *winning* in the martial sense is in the mind/will, mostly so, or in the skills one has, or mostly so?

And if you wish to add a comment with your vote, so much the better.

 

[Sukerkin]

Oooh, that's actually a tricky one.

My natural reaction is to say that it is nearly all mindset but I have to remember that that is with me looking back down the telescope of nearly a couple of decades in the armed and unarmed arts.

If you haven't got a skill-set to work with then you're in for a rough ride, unless your toughness and will is great enough to overcome the beating you'll be taking. Now I have known a couple of blokes like that - they were just so hard they'd absorb everything that hit them until they managed to get to where they could plant a punch in the opponents face ... then it was lights out for the opponent. But it's not a general case by any means.

On the other hand, there are also martial artists whose skill-set is impeccable to watch but have hardly any fight-sense at all. Their techniques are near perfect but if you don't use them at the right time, in the right circumstance, then prospects for victory are not great.

As ever with the martial arts, in my view, the best path is one that blends the two elements together so that you end up with competently executed physical skills deployed at the behest of competently structured mental skills. That is with the proviso that intelligent fighting will beat un-directed physical fighting more than the other way round.

 

[jks9199]

It came to me recently in thinking about a Youtube clip from another thread in which a MMA fighter uses the straight blast effectively and repeatedly to drive his opponent across the ring, Why didn't the 'loser' just step out of the way. Why did he help the attacker by backing straight up? In fancy MA terms, we call this tactic of moving out of the way, stepping off the center line. Then of course, it's much easier to counter attack. Imo and experience, this works, by the way.

But I think the guy getting the beating didn't do this because he had a certain mindset. I'm not saying his skills were as good as the attackers, but whoever set up the fight must have thought they were close, or it wouldn't
have gotten a draw. So, I think in this case the loss was more one of the wrong mind set.

Anyway, I won't prejudice the poll any further by saying more. Instead, I'd like to hear from you. Do you think *winning* in the martial sense is in the mind/will, mostly so, or in the skills one has, or mostly so?

And if you wish to add a comment with your vote, so much the better.

To address the specific scenario (backpedalling and being beaten to a pulp by the straight blast instead of sidestepping) -- it's an easy concept to hear. It's easy to tell. But people have a lot of trouble doing it unless they've really practiced it. And when that continuous barrage of punches is coming at you, it's a little late to start practicing! It overwhelms you quickly. After all -- that's the whole purpose!

Now -- to the overall question... It's more complicated. The first thing is that you have to define winning! If I'm participating in a tournament or sparring session, I define a "win" as me doing what I've practiced, instead of something else. But -- in the street? Then winning is surviving. Professionally -- surviving and subdueing/arresting the idiot I'm fighting. So -- mindset is an important key to winning. But, physical preparation also is important. All the determination in the world won't do you any good if your body doesn't have the resources to fight. Skill is also important; the more skill you have, and the more faith you have in that skill through practice, the more likely you are to be calm, and succeed.

 

[kidswarrior]

...sidestepping -- it's an easy concept to hear. It's easy to tell. But people have a lot of trouble doing it unless they've really practiced it.

Exactly. And even after practicing it, it may take a certain mind set to overcome the natural reaction (duck and cover--i.e., back up), in order to actually pull it off.

Now -- to the overall question... It's more complicated.

I know, I know. Quantifying/categorizing often is an oversimplification of something(s) that can only really be qualified. But sometimes categories are useful just to get us thinking. So, I'm taking a chance that this oversimplification in the form of a poll might be one of those times.

 

[morph4me]

Great thread Mark, and great responses.

I'm going to go with mostly mindset, but your mindset can't be rigid. Having the skill set is important, but without the willingness to use those skills, the perception to see openings and the will to take advantage of them, the flexibility to change tactics as necessary, you can't achieve your goals, whether winning a contest, or surviving an encounter.

 

[bluekey88]

I, too, go with mostly mindset, based on a foundation of technique and skill.

Think about it, plenty of people can be good brawlers with littel more than the willingness to do bodily harm to their opponents. When you add skills and technique to this you end up with a dangerous human being.

Case in point. I was watching episode 2 of the newest Ultimate fighter series. One of the later fights involved this guy from Oklahoma. He was tough as nails and was ther personification of heart. He gave his all in that fight for two solid rounds. The only problem is he really didn't have any ground game. He'd go for submissions but couldn't finish. His opponent just kept getting him on his back and pounding him. All three judges (Dana White, Quinton jackson, and forrest Griffin) were really impressed with this guy. They all agreed that if he's had even a little technique, his mindset (aggresive, never give up, go all out) would have won him that fight and made him a contender for taking the whole show.

As an instructor, I've lost count of the number of times I've worked with a student who had the ABILITY to do something but failed because they held back or were scared to do it. Once that mindset is changed, then the transformation is quite impressive.

Peace,
Erik

 

[MJS]

It came to me recently in thinking about a Youtube clip from another thread in which a MMA fighter uses the straight blast effectively and repeatedly to drive his opponent across the ring, Why didn't the 'loser' just step out of the way. Why did he help the attacker by backing straight up? In fancy MA terms, we call this tactic of moving out of the way, stepping off the center line. Then of course, it's much easier to counter attack. Imo and experience, this works, by the way.

But I think the guy getting the beating didn't do this because he had a certain mindset. I'm not saying his skills were as good as the attackers, but whoever set up the fight must have thought they were close, or it wouldn't
have gotten a draw. So, I think in this case the loss was more one of the wrong mind set.

Anyway, I won't prejudice the poll any further by saying more. Instead, I'd like to hear from you. Do you think *winning* in the martial sense is in the mind/will, mostly so, or in the skills one has, or mostly so?

And if you wish to add a comment with your vote, so much the better.

Nice thread!

My view of the straightblast is to overwhelm your opponent. I've been told that its harder to move back quick than it is to move forward. I'll sidetrack my reply for one moment and use this example. Lets say we're faced with someone who grabs our wrist. Now, chances are, the opponent is focused on that, so any attempt to move, escape, apply our own joint lock, etc. is going to be easily noticed. Now, if we pre-empt our defense with say a quick kick to his shin, or a flick to his eyes, it'll momentarily distract him, hopefully, letting us execute our defense.

Back to the straightblast. When I do it during sparring, I like to try and set it up first, then come in with the punches. In the clip, the person hit the cage, and landed on the ground, letting Belfort have even more of an edge. I dont fight in a cage, so I do a few strikes, and then clinch the neck.

Could this still be countered? I'm sure there're counters for everything. IMO, it all comes down to how things are set up. As for the last part of your question...I'd say its a mix of both mindset and skill set. Mindset: the person has to find the right time and place to execute the move. They have to commit to it as well, because any hesitation on their part will open them up for a counter. Skillset: the person has to train something repeatedly, so its more of a natural response, rather than one that has to be thought of.

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

Mostly mind, fear or shock tend to over ride skill in most (not all) cases.

Hey one of the things that Xingyiquan really likes is someone to back straight up, not that Xingyi can't turn or follow, and it can. But attack, attack hard and generally your opponent starts backing up to get away, does not matter much about skill at that point other than there ability to block. But attack a good Bagua guy he will move out of the way and then it becomes both mind set and skill. The reason I use these 2 styles as example is they have been around for awhile and Xingyi has counted on an opponent backing up for a very long time.

From an MMA perspective I can only speculate but I would have to say it was an attack he had not seen or had tried on him much if at all before.

And moving out of the way works REALLY well

 

[terryl965]

Well I am on the other side here mostly skill set, without having the basic skills one needs to defend the mind lives in fear. Case and point in High school we all know the ones that the football team pick on why because they where weak and had no self confidence to defend. But yet some of these people today would be better then most are because of training and learning the basic skill set to survive.

The mind is a great tool when people learn how to use it and take control of it, but until then most just curl up and become victoms of there own fears.

 

[kidswarrior]

Well I am on the other side here mostly skill set, without having the basic skills one needs to defend the mind lives in fear.

That's a fair point, Terry, so I guess we'll let you be on the opposite side. :lol:

The mind is a great tool when people learn how to use it and take control of it, but until then most just curl up and become victims of there own fears.

So if I'm understanding you right, it's skill set first for preservation until the mindset can be established over time...? I think you've just broken it down further than I did. Food for thought, for sure.

 

[terryl965]

That's a fair point, Terry, so I guess we'll let you be on the opposite side. :lol:
So if I'm understanding you right, it's skill set first for preservation until the mindset can be established over time...? I think you've just broken it down further than I did. Food for thought, for sure.

Yes you are understanding me right

 

[bluekey88]

In the end, you really need both....the question seems to be in what proportions?

I mean, skill without the proper mindset is less than skill WITH the proper mindset. That's the classic case of the student who gets into a real fight situation who freezes up or fails in some way because he/she was not mentally prepared to do what needed doing.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people out there with the proper mindset without a lot of skill who can be a handful to handle in a fight. However, when faced with an opponenet with greater skill (and the mindset to use it) are handlable.

My feelings in the end are that mindset is slightly morte important in the overall equation. The willingness to act/react without hesitation. To do waht is necessary. To have that warrior spirit will carry the day...especially when is based on a foundation of skill.

Perhaps it's not a question of proportion (20% of this with 80% of that), but instead a more complex interaction where whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Peace,
Erik

 

[KempoGuy06]

nice thread

I believe its almost a 50/50 split with mindset coming out a little ahead. All the skill in the world without the proper mindset to use/apply it isnt the best thing and the same the other way around.

B

 

[morph4me]

Well I am on the other side here mostly skill set, without having the basic skills one needs to defend the mind lives in fear. Case and point in High school we all know the ones that the football team pick on why because they where weak and had no self confidence to defend. But yet some of these people today would be better then most are because of training and learning the basic skill set to survive.

The mind is a great tool when people learn how to use it and take control of it, but until then most just curl up and become victoms of there own fears.

Fear can be a powerful motivator, depending on how you react to it. If someone is afraid and backed into a corner he becomes very dangerous, with or without skills. I believe that fear is also one of the reasons people look for training in the skills to make them less fearful, I see fear as a mindset. On the other side of the coin I know quite a few very skilled individuals who would be afraid to use their skills, some because they are afraid of hurting someone, others because of their upbringing etc. That kind of mindset would interfere with the use of their skills. I still think that the mindset is still the major factor in winning.

 

[terryl965]

Fear can be a powerful motivator, depending on how you react to it. If someone is afraid and backed into a corner he becomes very dangerous, with or without skills. I believe that fear is also one of the reasons people look for training in the skills to make them less fearful, I see fear as a mindset. On the other side of the coin I know quite a few very skilled individuals who would be afraid to use their skills, some because they are afraid of hurting someone, others because of their upbringing etc. That kind of mindset would interfere with the use of their skills. I still think that the mindset is still the major factor in winning.

Tom I agree fear can be a great motivator for some and to other it is there weakness when confronted. I see people everyday the same as you that come in for various reason to train, alot is because they get picked on. Funny thing is once there get over there fear and relize they have the right to defend they become a better person, for this to happen one must have the skills they believe to help them over come there fears. In short here both is realitive in any given stituation, but I see skill as the more powerful aspect to one training either physical or mentally.

I love this types of threads where I can really express what I want to say.

 

[Langenschwert]

One cannot underestimate the mental aspect. Skills are important, but so are ruthlessness and audacity. In a real life and death encounter, you've gotta have your head in the game or all the skills in the world mean exactly nothing. If in such a dire situation, if you're not mentally ready to maim and perhaps kill another human being, and risk suffering the same, you might not bring your skills to bear at all out of fear.

Fiore dei Liberi, the most important figure in early Italian martial arts said this in 1409: "Audacity is the virtue that makes this art."

My favourite advice is from Sigmund Ringeck, Fechtmeister (i.e. Fight-master) to Albrecht, Count Palatine of Rhine and Duke of Bavaria, who said this in 1440: "a despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of all skill."

These were men of war and duels, who saw first-hand the effects of violent melees in a variety of circumstances. I certainly trust their judgement in that regard. These same masters said that a valiant man can defeat a master if he fights courageously.

Now, if you've got cojones and finely tunes skills and the ruthlessness to use them, you'll be a fearsome combatant.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Steel Tiger]

Mindset is vital to winning, but it is not all important. A highly skilled fighter will usually win against an unskilled fighter even with a bad mental attitude. But then again I have seen guys with almost no real understanding of fighting annihilate opponents simply because they could not conceive of anything else happening.

Here's a question, its not so much for street encounters but for competition, where you have a chance to prepare. Having sized up your opponent and knowing in a basic fashion what sort of tactics you might employ against him, how do you go into the fight? Do you go in thinking about specifics - if he does this I'll do that? Or do you go in thinking simply I will win? Is the only possible outcome you can conceive of victory?

This is the sort of attitude I have known some guys, admittedly big guys, to carry with them. It seems to exude from them like some sort of field of energy that surrounds them. There is an implicit threat that says if you try it with me you will lose.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is an old story form Japan that I am looking for that pretty much talk about mind set.

I will have to find it and post it but it is basically about a guy who is a MA master but he is also a shop keeper of something like that and one day some guy comes to rob him and he is frozen with fear until someone, possibly his wife yells out your not a shop keeper your a martial artist and he promptly dispatches the robber.

I really need to find it and post it because I am likely way off but the idea is the same.

You may have the skill but if your mind is not with you it is over before it begins

 

[Tames D]

There is an old story form Japan that I am looking for that pretty much talk about mind set.

I will have to find it and post it but it is basically about a guy who is a MA master but he is also a shop keeper of something like that and one day some guy comes to rob him and he is frozen with fear until someone, possibly his wife yells out your not a shop keeper your a martial artist and he promptly dispatches the robber.

I really need to find it and post it because I am likely way off but the idea is the same.

You may have the skill but if your mind is not with you it is over before it begins

I believe a true Martial Arts Master wouldn't have to be reminded of his abilities in the middle of a crisis. I believe that if your training is at that level you would have an automatic response regardless of mindset.

 

[kidswarrior]

You may have the skill but if your mind is not with you it is over before it begins

Yep, mindset. I chastised a colored belt today for losing focus at a critical time during class. If he'd made the same mistake just 10 feet to the west, out the door and on the sidewalk, it could have meant lights out for him.

I have seen guys with almost no real understanding of fighting annihilate opponents simply because they could not conceive of anything else happening.

A fantastic instructor I trained with for awhile put it this way: You have to go in with the knowledge that losing is not an option. :EG:

I believe a true Martial Arts Master ... would have an automatic response regardless of mindset.

Or, maybe, because that automatic response is his mindset?

Audacity is the virtue that makes this art

A classic. Love it.