Wing Chun essentials

[Punchy]

This was brought up in another thread and I thought it deserved its own space.
What do you consider to be the WC essentials?
The things we can all agree on that makes WC what it is.
Regardless of how we shift, step, or spell the name, what is the essence of what makes Wing chun, Wing Chun?

 

[MacPedro]

Hi,

Sifu Wong Sun Leung said in David Peterson's book
"Through learning the forms we realize that, unlike other martial arts, there are no fixed responses in Wing Chun."

'There are no fixed responses'.

Is this important? It's not the position, it's the energy at the end or somethiing? Am i mistaken?

Pete

P.S. Sorry if this is an infringement of any copyright kind of thing, I thought quotes were allowed

 

[tenzen]

Economy of motion, allignment, structure, coordination, sensitivity.
And the ability to see past the finger to find the moon

 

[mook jong man]

The two big ones for me would have to be the use of simultaneous counter-attack and directness.

 

[chain punch]

Forward balanced aggression and simplicity

 

[zepedawingchun]

Hi,

Sifu Wong Sun Leung said in David Peterson's book
"Through learning the forms we realize that, unlike other martial arts, there are no fixed responses in Wing Chun."

'There are no fixed responses'.

Is this important? It's not the position, it's the energy at the end or somethiing? Am i mistaken?

Pete

P.S. Sorry if this is an infringement of any copyright kind of thing, I thought quotes were allowed

Yes, no fixed responses. And yes it is important. If we had fixed responses, then we' be doing just like almost all the other arts. For this you do that, for that you do this, there would be a given response for every punch, kick, grab, etc. Our art allows for individuality, though a lot of people don't see it or believe it. I can throw a punch to 5 different students and get 5 different responses, due to how they perceive the punch coming to them. The energy involved, speed, aggression, lack of aggression, etc, all decided by what you feel should be the correct response.

 

[geezer]

Yes, no fixed responses... I can throw a punch to 5 different students and get 5 different responses, due to how they perceive the punch coming to them. The energy involved, speed, aggression, lack of aggression, etc, all decided by what you feel should be the correct response.

Yes, and that's one of the things that can make demonstrating a technique or doing drills tricky. If your training partner changes his energy, even a little, you have to alter your counter or you may end up crashing force against force. A visually imperceptible change in energy will dictate an entirely different response. It makes working with stubborn partners who won't "feed" you the right energy especially annoying!

As for essentials... what I see is an overarching philosophy of minimalism. In other words trying to do the smallest, most efficient movement possible, using the least amount of energy to achieve the necessary result. Compared to something like Shaolin, it's like comparing a Baroque painting to a Mondrian... which is why so many people just don't "get it".

 

[MacPedro]

Economy of motion, allignment, structure, coordination, sensitivity.
And the ability to see past the finger to find the moon

This is all great stuff.

It would be enlightening if everyone gave short examples of what these words mean to them.

Aggression and forward balance, what's going through your mind Chain Punch?

Your awareness of your adversary and their sphere of control and your willingness to disrupt them. How would you phrase that? If you can share in more depth, what it means to you, we'd have a bit of identity we never had before. But I completely understand if this personal to you.

I would describe 'Alignment' in the context of limbs and the weapons of collision, snooker cues in a row maybe. Where structure is your mountain and the jibs of the crane that swing the wrecking balls about.
Incidentally I, in no way want anybody to think I am anywhere near wrecking ball standards at this moment in time.

Does anybody else have an urge to describe these essentials in any great depth, even though we all kinda know what they're talking about with varying levels of understanding.

It could be a bit confessional.

We're not talking war stories. Just elaborate on the words we all hear and tell each other

Pedro

 

[tenzen]

Rather than cover the definitions of the words, let's cover some questions pertaining to each that one could ask to check your wing chun.
Economy of motion: is it simple and direct? Are you wasting energy or space?
Allignment:is your body aligned correctly? Is the center defended? Do you attack the center?
Structure: is your base solid and flexible? Are you relaxed but ready? Are the elbows tight?
Coordination: simultaneous attack and defense anyone? Whole body movement?
Sensitivity: can the opponents movement be felt? Can you difuse the energy and control the situation?

These are only some of the questions that could be used as checks to ask yourself or used to observe another. But if you meet these requirements you might be a chunner.
And stop looking at the finger.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . . . It makes working with stubborn partners who won't "feed" you the right energy especially annoying!

When feeding drills in Wing Chun, it is important to feed the correct energy to get the correct reponse. These help to create points of reference that help students decide if the energy is this or that, which leads to a non-thought out direction in which to travel so as to be able to give a safe return response with a hand position of their choosing. Basically, it tells the student to attack or crash their opponent, recover because they were over-powered by an atack, re-direck an attack, strike, parry, fold, cover, shift, move, stay still, etc.

 

[chain punch]

This is all great stuff.

It would be enlightening if everyone gave short examples of what these words mean to them.

Aggression and forward balance, what's going through your mind Chain Punch?

Your awareness of your adversary and their sphere of control and your willingness to disrupt them. How would you phrase that? If you can share in more depth, what it means to you, we'd have a bit of identity we never had before. But I completely understand if this personal to you.

I would describe 'Alignment' in the context of limbs and the weapons of collision, snooker cues in a row maybe. Where structure is your mountain and the jibs of the crane that swing the wrecking balls about.
Incidentally I, in no way want anybody to think I am anywhere near wrecking ball standards at this moment in time.

Does anybody else have an urge to describe these essentials in any great depth, even though we all kinda know what they're talking about with varying levels of understanding.

It could be a bit confessional.

We're not talking war stories. Just elaborate on the words we all hear and tell each other

Pedro

Pedro, I am off the opinion that no matter how big the attacker is, he has a chin and therefore can be knocked out. If your punch is hard enough and quick enough so that it lands without warning then you maximise your chance of knocking your attacker out without them even throwing a punch. But balance should never be compromised. As long as you have balance then you have the potential for power. As long as you remain balanced even after punching, then you can continue to attack and capitalise on your initial advantage or make good your escape. Our style is aggressive. The best form of defence is attack. Be first with your punch and be ready to follow up. For me, this is where it all begins...

Paul

 

[MacPedro]

When feeding drills in Wing Chun, it is important to feed the correct energy to get the correct reponse. These help to create points of reference that help students decide if the energy is this or that, which leads to a non-thought out direction in which to travel so as to be able to give a safe return response with a hand position of their choosing. Basically, it tells the student to attack or crash their opponent, recover because they were over-powered by an atack, re-direck an attack, strike, parry, fold, cover, shift, move, stay still, etc.

Zep,
i'm making a note of this. Cheers I don't know what it means, but I like it!

Pedro

 

[MacPedro]

Pedro, I am off the opinion that no matter how big the attacker is, he has a chin and therefore can be knocked out. If your punch is hard enough and quick enough so that it lands without warning then you maximise your chance of knocking your attacker out without them even throwing a punch. But balance should never be compromised. As long as you have balance then you have the potential for power. As long as you remain balanced even after punching, then you can continue to attack and capitalise on your initial advantage or make good your escape. Our style is aggressive. The best form of defence is attack. Be first with your punch and be ready to follow up. For me, this is where it all begins...

Paul

Paul,
this is great. This is solid gold. I can see more clearly, forgive me being a slow learner. I'm a bit simple that way sometimes Much of this* goes without saying to some of you, I might have what could be called an associative disorder ... and acute hypochondria. But with communication like the above from Chainpunch I'm fast getting over it.
I was exactly the same at collage, they can teach you again and again how PNP an NPN transistors worked but I'm at a loss wi' describing a CRT.

Pedro


* Both points.

 

[MacPedro]

When feeding drills in Wing Chun, it is important to feed the correct energy to get the correct reponse. These help to create points of reference that help students decide if the energy is this or that, which leads to a non-thought out direction in which to travel so as to be able to give a safe return response with a hand position of their choosing. Basically, it tells the student to attack or crash their opponent, recover because they were over-powered by an atack, re-direck an attack, strike, parry, fold, cover, shift, move, stay still, etc.

Zepadawingchun,
this is an awesome answer. Thanks for being so expressive. This is going to be read again and again.

Pedro

 

[WC_lun]

As for essentials... what I see is an overarching philosophy of minimalism. In other words trying to do the smallest, most efficient movement possible, using the least amount of energy to achieve the necessary result. Compared to something like Shaolin, it's like comparing a Baroque painting to a Mondrian... which is why so many people just don't "get it".

I thought the above was important enough to be seen again

 

[cwk]

I'd say the number 1 essential for me is complete relaxation. It's the only way to get that heavy, shocking power that makes wing chun what it is- a very effective form of self defense.
I also find this to be the hardest thing to teach, it takes ages to get students to truly believe that they can produce power by relaxing and not tensing. Relaxing the upper body is the first step and unfortunately this is where a lot of people stop, but to really get that heavy force you need to get your lower half just as relaxed while retaining correct structure. This is why stance and footwork training is so important in CMA.

 

[Danny T]

no fixed responses
directness
relaxation
body unity
economy of movement
simultaneous defend and attack
sensitivity (feeling)


These are all excellent and well known.

I am advocate of patience. Feel the movement and force, use it for redirection & control while patiently allowing the opponent to trap or intercept his own movement.

 

[Rion]

This was brought up in another thread and I thought it deserved its own space.
What do you consider to be the WC essentials?
The things we can all agree on that makes WC what it is.
Regardless of how we shift, step, or spell the name, what is the essence of what makes Wing chun, Wing Chun?

WC essentials?

Simplicity

 

[tenzen]

Looks like we are all on the same page.