Why Wouldn't A Good Athlete Be Good In The Martial Arts

[isshinryuronin]

A strong parallel can be drawn between bodybuilding and some karate. It has been discussed in the past how some karate stresses form over function, i.e. the way a kata looks being stressed over its self-defense application. Similarly, bodybuilding does the same - the look is more important than any athletic application. It is not designed to build speed, reaction or even strength.

Yes, bodybuilding does build strength, but only as a side effect to body sculpting, just as doing kata emphasizing form will contribute to some degree self-defense but in both, concentrating on form can be of little use to actual application.

Weight training can be a benefit to karate, especially if application oriented. Some strength is always good in a fight but so is having a strong structure, mobility and mechanics. I've tailored my weight training to have a more direct effect on my karate effectiveness - twisting core strength for takedowns and strength to contribute to blocking/grabbing/pulling for example.

Just as some people do karate for other reasons than self-defense, there is nothing wrong with bodybuilding as long as one realizes what those activities can and cannot do. BTW, my son-in-law flew into Japan today and will compete in a bodybuilding competition there next week.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Just as some people do karate for other reasons than self-defense, there is nothing wrong with bodybuilding as long as one realizes what those activities can and cannot do. BTW, my son-in-law flew into Japan today and will compete in a bodybuilding competition there next week.

The best of luck to your son in law

 

[PhotonGuy]

Who is making fun of them? I inferred nothing other than the fact that mass (of any kind) typically makes things slower. Slower may mean only initially or at max velocity or somewhere in between.

Mass is just one factor, there are other factors that come into play with determining the speed of an object, and there are different types of speed.

Think of it this way, it is typically harder to get a very large ball rolling.

That's due to inertia, objects that are moving want to keep moving and objects at rest want to stay at rest, and the more massive an object the more inertia it has.

 

[PhotonGuy]

A strong parallel can be drawn between bodybuilding and some karate. It has been discussed in the past how some karate stresses form over function, i.e. the way a kata looks being stressed over its self-defense application.

Yes and this is particularly true with Taekwondo and XMA where it's more important to look flashy and impressive rather than being able to do a form where the techniques will be effective in a real self defense situation. It's more about looking good if you're going on screen and for Hollywood than doing stuff that actually works in the real world. That's all fine and dandy if your goal is to break into Hollywood with your forms but it's not the same thing as doing stuff that's effective in a real fight.

Similarly, bodybuilding does the same - the look is more important than any athletic application. It is not designed to build speed, reaction or even strength.

Yes that's true about bodybuilding, it's all about size and physique more than strength, unlike powerlifting which is about strength over size and physique.

Yes, bodybuilding does build strength, but only as a side effect to body sculpting, just as doing kata emphasizing form will contribute to some degree self-defense but in both, concentrating on form can be of little use to actual application

That's true about bodybuilding, just like powerlifting will make you bigger and improve your physique but as a side effect and not as a primary focus. As for kata emphasizing form over function that depends. XMA forms for instance can get you killed if you try that stuff in a real self defense situation.

Weight training can be a benefit to karate, especially if application oriented. Some strength is always good in a fight but so is having a strong structure, mobility and mechanics. I've tailored my weight training to have a more direct effect on my karate effectiveness - twisting core strength for takedowns and strength to contribute to blocking/grabbing/pulling for example.

That's good, I also do weight training for core strength, as well as weight training for leg strength to contribute to kicking power and weight training for arm and chest strength to contribute to hand striking power.

Just as some people do karate for other reasons than self-defense, there is nothing wrong with bodybuilding as long as one realizes what those activities can and cannot do.

You're absolutely right, and what's important is knowing what you want to do and how to go about doing it and realizing that not all paths lead to the same summit.

BTW, my son-in-law flew into Japan today and will compete in a bodybuilding competition there next week.

Best of wishes to your son-in-law.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Yes and this is particularly true with Taekwondo and XMA where it's more important to look flashy and impressive rather than being able to do a form where the techniques will be effective in a real self defense situation. It's more about looking good if you're going on screen and for Hollywood than doing stuff that actually works in the real world. That's all fine and dandy if your goal is to break into Hollywood with your forms but it's not the same thing as doing stuff that's effective in a real fight.

True, but with really very few exceptions, the dudes who can do the 'flashy' techniques can also pound you to weasel jam in a real fight.

 

[HighKick]

Mass is just one factor, there are other factors that come into play with determining the speed of an object, and there are different types of speed.

That's due to inertia, objects that are moving want to keep moving and objects at rest want to stay at rest, and the more massive an object the more inertia it has.

Are you sure you want to get in a physics argument with me?

Newton's first law Only works in a static bubble and has very little to do with the world we live in.
Newton's second law is exactly what we are talking about F=Ma.
Newton's third law discusses how the first law gets cancelled (in application).

I tried to dumb it down for you.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Are you sure you want to get in a physics argument with me?

Newton's first law Only works in a static bubble and has very little to do with the world we live in.
Newton's second law is exactly what we are talking about F=Ma.
Newton's third law discusses how the first law gets cancelled (in application).

I tried to dumb it down for you.

Might I ask what your background in physics is?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Point of order, you should have found that out first

 

[HighKick]

Might I ask what your background in physics is?

Two master degrees in engineering, three patents, four decades of application in industry & manufacturing. Control & Automation business owner for three decades. Four plus decades of martial arts training/teaching. Almost two decades of teaching EET at our local Technical/Vocational (TCAT) school.
Good enough for ya?

 

[PhotonGuy]

True, but with really very few exceptions, the dudes who can do the 'flashy' techniques can also pound you to weasel jam in a real fight.

The dudes who do the flashy techniques, stuff that looks good on screen, might be able to pound the average not martial arts person into weasel jam in a fight but the person who spends most of their time practicing the stuff that works in real fights is certainly going to do better in real fights than the person who spends most of their time practicing the Hollywood stuff.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Now that's an interesting point. How do you practice 'stuff that works in real fights', i.e. techniques that actually hurt people in a dojo setting? Without being on the receiving end of a lawsuit?

 

[windwalker099]

Are you sure you want to get in a physics argument with me?

Newton's first law Only works in a static bubble and has very little to do with the world we live in.
Newton's second law is exactly what we are talking about F=Ma.
Newton's third law discusses how the first law gets cancelled (in application).

I tried to dumb it down for you.

Interesting.
Not a physicist—just a cursory understanding as needed for my own practice.

You mentioned the third law “cancels” the first “in application.”
Is that really how the laws relate?
Or do they describe different aspects of force and motion that work together in practice?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Furthermore, how do you know 'what works in real fights'? Unless you make a habit of getting into fistfights, which is hardly to be recommended, or do MMA at a high level?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Two master degrees in engineering, three patents, four decades of application in industry & manufacturing. Control & Automation business owner for three decades. Four plus decades of martial arts training/teaching. Almost two decades of teaching EET at our local Technical/Vocational (TCAT) school.
Good enough for ya?

Impressive, I can learn some stuff from you.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Now that's an interesting point. How do you practice 'stuff that works in real fights', i.e. techniques that actually hurt people in a dojo setting? Without being on the receiving end of a lawsuit?

By using proper control and putting safety first.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Furthermore, how do you know 'what works in real fights'? Unless you make a habit of getting into fistfights, which is hardly to be recommended, or do MMA at a high level?

I know what doesn't work in real fights, all those high kicks and jumping around and doing flips and all that stuff that your typical Hollywood audience wants to see. It's common knowledge that what you see in the movies is not how stuff works in the real world.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

To each their own. Personally, I'm not actually interested in real combat that much. It's not something that's part of my job, and it isn't part of my social life. I do like doing cool stuff though.

 

[Hyoho]

With regard to athletic ability and speaking as someone that has taught in a Japanese dojo's for many years on a daily basis: Not hand to hand but Kendo. Practice is morning and evenings for three hours five days a week, half a day on Saturday's and Sundays. Minimum grade sandan. Around 55 young healthy fit young people. So they are one side, you and perhaps one more sensei on the other. Every day in the last hour they queue up to fight you! Its all rather one sided. As all the athletic prowess in the world will get you nowhere if your opponent knows about "timing". Not how fat you move, not how strong you are! All the time in the world to pick people off like mosquitoes. They only hit you when you let them to give them a feeling of winning.

 

[PhotonGuy]

To each their own. Personally, I'm not actually interested in real combat that much. It's not something that's part of my job, and it isn't part of my social life. I do like doing cool stuff though.

Well as you said to each their own, if real combat isn't your interest and you like to focus on other aspects of the martial arts I respect that.

 

[HighKick]

Interesting.
Not a physicist—just a cursory understanding as needed for my own practice.

You mentioned the third law “cancels” the first “in application.”
Is that really how the laws relate?
Or do they describe different aspects of force and motion that work together in practice?

I would say both in many instances. But they also stand on their own when applied in various observations and testing.
I cannot speak to whether that is how the laws 'relate' but I would say that is my interpretation in real world use.