Why would anyone issue "honory rank?"

[Sarah]

wow....i find it interesting that some people seem so negative almost getting upset at the idea of someone receiving an honorary BB.

All the examples given are good ones, I dont see the big deal. They are give as ' honorary ' and im sure the people that have received them are not thick, they know they are ' honorary ' and like Andrew said they are often people that are not MA'ist.

Other MA'ists that have put in the hard yards to get their BB dont need to feel threatened, it does not take anything away from you. I would find it hard to believe that a person that was thought well of enough to receive a ‘honorary ' BB would be the sort of person that would go off and start a Dojo claiming to be a legit BB...

 

[Don Roley]

I have seen legitmate casses where honorary ranks have been given out.
The person impresses the giver by his spirit or his abilities in another art. He is not proficient in the art the giver is able to give in, but it is felt that the guy has spirit and is honorable. So as a sign of esteem the honorary rank is given.

The guy who helps translate or mans the desk at the seminar, etc- how else can you really show that this guy worked hard for you while not quite being skilled in the art? It is a sign of thanks for hard work done in some cases.

And in most cases, the person just lists it with no big deal and makes it clear that it is a sign of friendship. The cases we tend to hear about are the abuse of this act.

 

[Adept]

To be honest, I have little affection for ranks of any kind, be they legitimate or honourary. It is only an aribtrary standard, and one that varies wildly from training venue to training venue. You are only ever as good as you are, no matter the colour of your belt.

 

[47MartialMan]

I would find it hard to believe that a person that was thought well of enough to receive a ‘honorary ' BB would be the sort of person that would go off and start a Dojo claiming to be a legit BB...

They do.

The whole issue of rank is to symbolize achievement via a material object. Thus, one can view any rank or title over-rated than that of the actual accomplishment. Hiwever, in the world on modern martial arts, practitoners nad non-practitoners alike are infactuated by this object.

Can someone be just as honorary by other means like a plaque, award, etc.?

 

[Sarah]

They do.

The whole issue of rank is to symbolize achievement via a material object. Thus, one can view any rank or title over-rated than that of the actual accomplishment. Hiwever, in the world on modern martial arts, practitoners nad non-practitoners alike are infactuated by this object.

Can somone be just as honary by other means like a plaque, award, etc.?

I guess people may be a little different over here, if someone is caring/giving/honourable enough to receive such an award then they tend to NOT be the sort of people that would go out and be dishonest about the award they got.

 

[arnisador]

I guess people may be a little different over here, if someone is caring/giving/honourable enough to receive such an award then they tend to NOT be the sort of people that would go out and be dishonest about the award they got.

Yeah, but you never know.

Still, I'd have to agree it's reasonable in some circumstances. Honorary doctorates are now given out like candy--in the future, everyone will have one--so maybe honorary black belts should be accepted. But, I just don't like 'em.

In fact, one sometimes sees "honorary colonels" (entertainers who support the armed services, for example). I guess part of the difference is that an honorary doctorate (honoris causa) and the like are usually clearly labeled as such, but in my experience an honorary black belt usually is not.

 

[Sarah]

Yeah, but you never know.

Still, I'd have to agree it's reasonable in some circumstances. Honorary doctorates are now given out like candy--in the future, everyone will have one--so maybe honorary black belts should be accepted. But, I just don't like 'em.

In fact, one sometimes sees "honorary colonels" (entertainers who support the armed services, for example). I guess part of the difference is that an honorary doctorate (honoris causa) and the like are usually clearly labeled as such, but in my experience an honorary black belt usually is not.

I can kind of understand where you are coming from, but like I say I guess thats where its different over here, I dont know of any Honorary BB being given, and if they are it would be on very rare occasions for legit reasons.

As for Honorary Doctorates, I dont even know if our Uni's hand them out, but I could be wrong?

 

[47MartialMan]

I guess people may be a little different over here, if someone is caring/giving/honourable enough to receive such an award then they tend to NOT be the sort of people that would go out and be dishonest about the award they got.

But, the realization is that there are those who do.

 

[Dronak]

Are people missing the point of Sarah's comment? She didn't claim that 100% of people with honorary degrees would be honest and 0% would be dishonest. Of course there will be people who will abuse just about anything they get. Her point was that *most* of them who have done something good enough to warrant the recognition of an honorary degree/BB won't attempt to pass themselves off as something they aren't. Note the "tend" part of her statement. Will some claim they're masters of the art and go start their own school? Yes. Will they all do so? No. Will enough do so that you have to worry about it and the integrity of the art and such? That I couldn't really tell you for sure. But really, I think Sarah's right -- people who are deserving of an honor should generally know better than to misrepresent it.

 

[Sarah]

Are people missing the point of Sarah's comment? She didn't claim that 100% of people with honorary degrees would be honest and 0% would be dishonest. Of course there will be people who will abuse just about anything they get. Her point was that *most* of them who have done something good enough to warrant the recognition of an honorary degree/BB won't attempt to pass themselves off as something they aren't. Note the "tend" part of her statement. Will some claim they're masters of the art and go start their own school? Yes. Will they all do so? No. Will enough do so that you have to worry about it and the integrity of the art and such? That I couldn't really tell you for sure. But really, I think Sarah's right -- people who are deserving of an honor should generally know better than to misrepresent it.

Cheers, you got my point across much better than I did...

 

[47MartialMan]

Yes, I was just adding that those do. Not that she didn't realize those who do. It was general commentary. A re-emphasization. Also, I had posted other areas towards this.

 

[MJS]

You know, you are 1 of the "few" who are truly a positive force amongst the sometimes quite a bit of nonsense! :asian:

Thank you Sir. :asian:

 

[47MartialMan]

So a honorary rank is not so honorable if it is mis-used as a tool for deceit?

 

[VSanhodo]

I have to admit I have GIVEN honory rank to NON Martial Arts Practitioners. Years ago, I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do a demo at the Govenors mansion. At the end of the demonstration, I was given the opportunity to speak. We gave the govenor a certificate saying very plain and clear HONORARY BLACK BELT. Now if ppl cant see this was done merely as a gesture of good will and that the Govenor is no more a martial artist than I am the President.
Now rank where it is very clearly written and spelled out on the certificate I dont have a big problem with. That I believe is far different than ppl who give out rank and titles to Martial art practitioners.

Thanks

San

 

[JenniM]

I had no question this man showed what a BLACK BELT embodied. He may not have had the physical skills of one but he had the mental and emotional fortitude that I hope to achieve one day.

Yes, we gave him an Honorary Black Belt 4 days before he passed. His family displayed it prominently at his memorial.
And I hope to one day meet him once more and tell him how honored I was to have known him.


God Bless
Thomas Beckly RIP

:asian:

I totally empathise with this - I was privileged enough to have known a man who was taken in his prime due to a tragic motorcycle accident - this man worked diligently and never missed a lesson, never found Kenpo easy but loved it with a passion - he was a ardent supporter of our organisation, the Kenpo community and was a friend with a wicked sense of humour - as well as being the President of the local Slaves chapter which had its own demands in itself - there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he would have finally made his Black, he just got it a little earlier than anticipated - Honorary Black Belt? You bet it was and given with great respect and honour.

God Bless
Frank Lewis RIP :asian:

 

[kenposikh]

I too knew Franky Boy and his sheer determination and dogged effort to improve learn and achieve was second to none. The day of his funeral is still fresh in my mind. Yes he was given an honoury Dan grade because there is no doubt in our minds that one day he would have achieved it.

However there is another commercial issue for giving honourary ranks which I personally don't agree with such as to celebraties in doig so and with promotion in the media etc you can certainly increase your public standing, I don't agree with this myself but am sure that it has happened in the not so distant past.

 

[arnisador]

I see a posthumous belt, like a posthumous degree, as not quite the same as an honorary one.

 

[evenflow1121]

While there certainly are some positives in honorary rank, such as, already stated, the individual who was perhaps a rank below black belt and dies, and is given the rank in recognition of his training, or someone who all of a sudden is no longer capable of training due to an illness or permanent injury. However, I am pretty sure that the concept of honorary rank is also greatly exploited...give somone an honorary rank if they promote your system no matter how much they might suck. Besides, death or a severe illness, I simply could not see the purpose for it, but to further a school's economic interest. I dont know, here you have a bunch of students whatever training every day at a studio for many years, and all of a sudden some dude walks in and the professor grants him an 'honorary' black belt, in my opinion there are other ways to show an 'outsider' gratitude without having to award an honorary rank. I do however, agree with the concept of awarding an honorary rank to a terminally ill individual, or somone who has passed away, or somone who by some physical hardship will no longer be able to train.

 

[arnisador]

I have to admit I have GIVEN honory rank to NON Martial Arts Practitioners. Years ago, I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to do a demo at the Govenors mansion. At the end of the demonstration, I was given the opportunity to speak. We gave the govenor a certificate saying very plain and clear HONORARY BLACK BELT.

I don't have a problem with this. It seems very natural. I know of many cases like this.

Clearly labeling it as such, and not listing that person as one of your black belts, makes a difference.

 

[47MartialMan]

While there certainly are some positives in honorary rank, such as, already stated, the individual who was perhaps a rank below black belt and dies, and is given the rank in recognition of his training, or someone who all of a sudden is no longer capable of training due to an illness or permanent injury. However, I am pretty sure that the concept of honorary rank is also greatly exploited...give somone an honorary rank if they promote your system no matter how much they might suck. Besides, death or a severe illness, I simply could not see the purpose for it, but to further a school's economic interest. I dont know, here you have a bunch of students whatever training every day at a studio for many years, and all of a sudden some dude walks in and the professor grants him an 'honorary' black belt, in my opinion there are other ways to show an 'outsider' gratitude without having to award an honorary rank. I do however, agree with the concept of awarding an honorary rank to a terminally ill individual, or somone who has passed away, or somone who by some physical hardship will no longer be able to train.

Yes, like anything, will get exploited. And I had posted there should be another obbject or item of award than the so "coveted black belt".