starting new arts. for what?

[mtabone]

No Martial Art forms have ever fought each other, only people have. Nor, can any Martial Arts fight any other Martial Arts. But people can fight people. Just wanted to quickly point that out.

 

[A.R.K.]

Yiliquan 1,

And just a note - from a certain perspective, no art is "perfect," especially the home made ones that attempt to "blend," "incorporate," or otherwise mix several arts into one brand spanking new one.

Not a poke at Yiliquan, but how is Yili NOT included in your above statement? I believe it is only 20 years old give or take from what I've gathered here from you and others. And that it is a combination of disciplines before it. Well, it would have to be.


Mtabone,

No Martial Art forms have ever fought each other, only people have. Nor, can any Martial Arts fight any other Martial Arts. But people can fight people. Just wanted to quickly point that out.

Very insightful and true. It would come down to 'any given day'. It is the person, not the discipline that dertimines the outcome. That is why many people with real world experience, but no official training or 'rank', can beat the snot out of someone in the martial arts that has no experience beyond the dojo.

In general,

I trained in Chin Na for example and have used it on duty in perhaps 90% of the altercations I've been in. But there are times I've had to use hard blocking/striking methods i.e. typical karate type methods. I choose to blend, incorporate etc several things together into a logical order for LEO professionals. And thus far it is working wonderfully.

As for ego's and high ranks etc, yes I'm sure that is the motive for some. But it would be wrong to stereotype everyone. Every discipline studied here on this board is NOT the orginal. Every discipline studied here is a blend of somthing before it. If not for these leaders before you the world of combative techniques would not be where it is today. And although there is some bad, and no universal standards it is still much more refined and open to the general public than ever before. And since the root purpose of the martial arts is to keep yourself and loved ones safe, it is a wonderful thing to have such diverse options.

:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by soccer50
i read 2-3 threads on creating new arts. what for though? there are great ones out already. People create arts based on experience and for a reason. Jiu jitsu was created to take on a bigger opponent. it was needed since japanese were small people, respectively. sword arts were made because swords were the primary weapon back then. The thais made muay thai for military purposes.

all these arts were needed and tested. therefore they worked. but to create your own art in this day and age is useless. theres no need for it and its all based on theory or its taken from a perfectly good system. like an earlier thread, if-then techniques are highly impractical. the only "practical techniuqes" are raw striking and grappling. brazilian jui jitsu contains the most comprehensive ground fighting techniques. jui jitsu/judo has the most comprehensive throwing and grappling techniques. boxing is the most superior punching style. muay thai utilizes knees and elbows. and theres tons of arts to choose when it comes to kicking.

so why is it that you will waste your time creating whats been created? save your energy

Soccer,
I hope you don't take my comments personal. Sometimes I could use a better choice of words.

I just don't agree with your comments, nothing more.

We all disagree at times and thats what its about, discussion.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Yiliquan 1,

Not a poke at Yiliquan, but how is Yili NOT included in your above statement? I believe it is only 20 years old give or take from what I've gathered here from you and others. And that it is a combination of disciplines before it. Well, it would have to be.

Show me where I ever said Yiliquan was perfect. Show me where I ever said it was 100% complete.

I will go on the record and say that as arts go, I believe it is one of the most complete arts being taught.

We have empty hand combat (strikes, kicks), grappling (throws, joint locks, ground fighting - though not of BJJ type nor intensity of training since it is not compatible with the doctrine of Yiliquan and dealing with multiple opponents at one time), ancient weapons use (staff, broadsword, spear, straight sword, two-handed sword, short stick, double sticks, double daggers, elkhorns, tiger fork and kwan-dao just to name a few), modern weapons use (for those who are interested, there are more than a few of us who are well educated on the use of firearms, and Yilisifu has done a fair bit of training with firearms instructors (I think) ), weapons defenses (against generic categories of non-firearm weapons, as well as specific defenses against firearms), meditation (qigong and chan meditation), health and healing (TCM and other forms of traditional medicine are studied at later points), etc.

As it goes, we have quite a bit in our curriculum to work with. Much more than most schools I have seen, visited or trained in.

And yes, Yiliquan is only 21 years old, however it really isn't a "new" system like some of the ones folks try to pass off as their own personal, new and improved creations. Just a reorganization of the presentation of material that has been around for a very, very long time. If you want to really calculate the age of all the info that has been passed down, there were about 12 - 14 generations of folks to go through last time I looked...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
I trained in Chin Na for example and have used it on duty in perhaps 90% of the altercations I've been in.

Ah geeeeez!

Why do you have to go and invite trouble like that? Could you not find a way to make a point without sounding like you are bragging and we know that when asked you will unable to provide proof to us. So you are just inviting some folks to come in and argue with you.

Aside from the trouble these boards may see with people calling for you to back up your claims and you ending up sanrling back and forth with them, there is the trouble of a potential LEO thinking about taking Chi Na based on what you say. You have the responsibility to back up what you say in such cases and you refuse to.

So can't you just try to make yout points without relying on experiences that you are not able or willing to prove in an open forum? Things would go a lot smoother if you did.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Don Roley
Ah geeeeez!

Why do you have to go and invite trouble like that? Could you not find a way to make a point without sounding like you are bragging and we know that when asked you will unable to provide proof to us. So you are just inviting some folks to come in and argue with you.

Aside from the trouble these boards may see with people calling for you to back up your claims and you ending up sanrling back and forth with them, there is the trouble of a potential LEO thinking about taking Chi Na based on what you say. You have the responsibility to back up what you say in such cases and you refuse to.

So can't you just try to make yout points without relying on experiences that you are not able or willing to prove in an open forum? Things would go a lot smoother if you did.

I don't recall you proving anything either. Because you can't. But because "he can't", you want to regulate how he expresses his thought process.

 

[A.R.K.]

Don,

When have I not backed up my LEO experiences? I've repeatedly stated that any may contact me privately for phone #'s to my supervisors for verification. I've stated all may contact FDLE or SEPSI as well. Proof offered, you've just not acted on it.

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Yiliquan is only 21 years old, however it really isn't a "new" system like some of the ones folks try to pass off as their own personal, new and improved creations. Just a reorganization of the presentation of material that has been around for a very, very long time.

The system of YiLi is derived from Paixingquan...a 400+ y/o system that was used by underground societies to overthrow the Ching Dynasty...
Paixingquan IS a blend of Shaolinquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguachang...
Yiliquan still teaches the two traditional Xingyiquan forms from the Xanshi school...Lien Wan Wu Xing and Xi Erh Xing Quan.
Yiliquan teaches ChangChao-dong's Bagua and LungXing Bagua.
Several of the traditional Shaolinquan forms have been retained.
The 24 step simplified TaiJiQuan and the combined (5-family style) of TaiJiQuan have been added...
Additionally, the eight-shape forms were added and are a synthesis of the teachings of the other styles...the shape forms teach strategy and entry...how to neutralize and close with the bad-guy...
The method of instruction is more in line with Japanese style instruction...warm-up, drill, forms practice, one-step and three-step sparring...class typically includes a short lecture on how and why a movement is performed in a particular way...class also includes a section on "where in the form is this technique?" or "What do you see in this movement?" It's not all spoon-fed...the students have to think and look for applications beyond the obvious...Oh, and there is the obligatory beating for Yiliquan1


In addition to any typical class, there is some other aspect that we work on...sometimes chin na, sometimes chokes, sometimes defense against weapons, etc.

So, yes it's new...but it's not so new.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by akja
I don't recall you proving anything either. Because you can't. But because "he can't", you want to regulate how he expresses his thought process.

For your information, Don Roley didn't make any claim.

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
I've repeatedly stated that any may contact me privately for phone #'s to my supervisors for verification.

You see, that is the problem. You would have to trust your word that you were giving out real numbers and not just the numbers of friends and/or students. If you could give the numbers in a public forum, or some sort of official web page and contact info, then the problems would go away. Unfortunatly, you have always refused to do this in the past and it comes down to a matter of trusting your word.

AFAIK, violent actions in a detention facility involving officers are written up in detailed reports. These reports are part of the public record. You should be able to give the case numbers and dates of some of these, but do not seem to be able to. And then the problem of trust somes in.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by KennethKu
For your information, Don Roley didn't make any claim.

I stated that he could not prove any claims, whether he made claims or did not, it did not matter. There is no way to prove claims.

I guess my point is more like: Well whose asking?

When someone directs statements to me, I check their profile before I respond. I try to give the repect that someone has earned. If the profile is blank, they are saying they wish to give opinions without us knowing where they are coming from. Then it takes time to figure them out. In the mean time, I'm opening a can of worms.

As far as backing up the claims. Anybody in here at anytime can lie. How do we know that the people we are talking to are telling the truth?

The little issues of worrying about this and that is a waste of time.:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by akja
I stated that he could not prove any claims, whether he made claims or did not, it did not matter. There is no way to prove claims.

Actually, a while back I did prove my claim of fluency in the Japanese language. I did it in such a way as anyone could check it for themselves through a local Japanese consulate rather than have to trust me.

But in most cases, I prefer to give reference to things outside of my own experience and are part of the public record. I may have the exact same experience, but if it is in a book or something of that nature it is a lot easier for others to check for themselves. And it does not sound like I am trying to impress others with how experienced I am.

And I avoid all of the trouble that we have seen between ARK and those that have been demanding proof. It would be nice to do without the screaming for a while. But in this case, a police officer may choose an art based on what ARK says he has experienced. So to let it slide without asking for proof may cause injury to potential LEOs in the future. And thus the trouble may begin.

Again, if we do not wish to prove anything, we should not make claims that we will have to prove when asked. Things would be a lot more calm around here if we all just tried to avoid basing things on experiences we can not or will not then back up in an equally public manner.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by akja
...There is no way to prove claims....

Wrong. Just because you do not know how to, does not mean it cannot be done.

Originally posted by akja
.....As far as backing up the claims. Anybody in here at anytime can lie. How do we know that the people we are talking to are telling the truth?....

All of the above, have been addressed repeatedly many times already. If you wish to learn, then just do a search on old posts.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Don Roley

.....Again, if we do not wish to prove anything, we should not make claims that we will have to prove when asked. Things would be a lot more calm around here if we all just tried to avoid basing things on experiences we can not or will not then back up in an equally public manner....

This will also enhance the quality of the forum significantly.

 

[A.R.K.]

Yiliquan 1 & Chufeng,

Again please note that I am not questioning Yiliquan's value or it's place in the arts. Only that Yiliquan 1's statement...

And just a note - from a certain perspective, no art is "perfect," especially the home made ones that attempt to "blend," "incorporate," or otherwise mix several arts into one brand spanking new one.

...caught my eye. It would seem that every style/system/discipline be it ten years old or five hundred years old is a blend, incorporation, or mix of other arts either before it or contemporary with it. For example Chufeng, you gave an excellent description of Yiliquan past and present. Many thanks :asian: And I noticed this as well...

The system of YiLi is derived from Paixingquan

Which is perfectly acceptable.

Paixingquan IS a blend of Shaolinquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguachang...

And blending is perfectly acceptable as well. In fact all disciplines currently taught are a blend of something.

Several of the traditional Shaolinquan forms have been retained.

The 24 step simplified TaiJiQuan and the combined (5-family style) of TaiJiQuan have been added...

Additionally, the eight-shape forms were added and are a synthesis of the teachings of the other styles

Things retained, combined, added, and borrowed from other systems.

The method of instruction is more in line with Japanese style instruction...

Sounds like a very well rounded discipline :asian: I just wanted to make point that most/all new disciplines are the same/similar in that they were derived from disciplines before it. And that is a good thing as it gives options to the practitioner.

Well done in my opinion

Don,

You see, that is the problem. You would have to trust your word that you were giving out real numbers and not just the numbers of friends and/or students.

I'm just not sure if your attempting to cast some illusion of denial or if you honestly aren't the brightest light in the harbour :rofl:

You see my friend, I work as an officer for a real Sheriff's office. Although policy prohibits me from listing agency numbers on the internet in an open forum I have time and again invited anyone interested to contact me privately. The number that I give them as well as the name of the agency are easily verifiable by the internet or by 411 on your telephone. And since they are real numbers to a real agency then you can rest assured that any supervisor that answers is indeed a real supervisor. Unless you see this as some vast conspiracy put in place just to fool you

How many times must I say contact me? I'll give you my work number and the times that I'm there so we can speak personally. I'll be more than happy to give you the names of the supervisors that I have worked under, the Cpls & Sgts in the training section I work with or the Academy where I am an Instructor.

I've done everything short of dial the phone for you Don.

And I'm not sure why you would have a problem with me stating that 90% of the uses of force I've had I've used Chin Na techniques Chin Na means simply to 'seize and control' and that is what we do on duty. We try our best not to cause any injury if possible. Chin Na techniques work extremely well in the LEO/Correctional environment. No a boast or bragg, simply fact.

And, you still haven't answered my question about the Pangainoon off shoot comment. You said you couldn't find any comment that I had made on it and I provided it to you, Dated around 3 months ago. You said you would need that to be convinced . So since I provided what you asked for..are you convinced?

:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Kenneth Ku,

AKJA posted..

There is no way to prove claims....

And you posted...

Wrong. Just because you do not know how to, does not mean it cannot be done.

But didn't post how this might be done. Could you enlighten us please. Perhaps you have thought of something we have not. Would appreciate your valued input.

:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
You see my friend, I work as an officer for a real Sheriff's office. Although policy prohibits me from listing agency numbers on the internet in an open forum I have time and again invited anyone interested to contact me privately. The number that I give them as well as the name of the agency are easily verifiable by the internet or by 411 on your telephone.

So things can be confirmed on the internet after you give them to me, but you can not just give me the information or post them where everyone can see them?

And let us face it, there is enough out there on these forums to make anyone suspect you. Because of past experiences, you are actually under more suspicion by many than the typical poster. But you can avoid it by just not making statements that are based on experiences that can not or will not be proven in an equally open fashion.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
And I'm not sure why you would have a problem with me stating that 90% of the uses of force I've had I've used Chin Na techniques Chin Na means simply to 'seize and control' and that is what we do on duty.

Chin Na is the name of a system of techniques from China used to seize and control that emphisizes joint locks and manipulations. It is not a generic term such as grappling. Again, you use terms that you do not seem to be fully aware of the full meaning of. This can be a cause for problems when someone sees the term Chin Na and thinks that you are talking about the Chinese system.

 

[fringe_dweller]

This thread was looking interesting for a while..... can we stop it from degenerating into a "yes i am, no you're not" thread like so many others have before?

Respectfully,

 

[A.R.K.]

So things can be confirmed on the internet after you give them to me, but you can not just give me the information or post them where everyone can see them?

I just don't understand why your having difficulty with this this Don. Policy prohibits me from listig agency numbers in an open forum. Do you understand what prohibits means? It means that they will not permit you to do it. Do you understand what an open forum is? Your on one now

If you would like to speak with me personally then I can arrange this. I can give you the numbers you claim to seek. If you need further verification that they are indeed the correct numbers you may check with the agencies website or dial 411. Its pretty simple Don. :shrug:

And let us face it, there is enough out there on these forums to make anyone suspect you.

Uh no, only those that subscribe to believing unsubstantiated inuendos based entirely on fictitious post content. No one has proven anything here on anybody. No one has even come close. However, please feel free to post ALL the reasons you suspect me. I would VERY much like to see them.

Chin Na is the name of a system of techniques from China used to seize and control that emphisizes joint locks and manipulations. It is not a generic term such as grappling. Again, you use terms that you do not seem to be fully aware of the full meaning of. This can be a cause for problems when someone sees the term Chin Na and thinks that you are talking about the Chinese system.

Chin Na is a Chinese system the techniques of which can be found under various names in most every discipline in the world. I am fully aware of the terms and their meaning as related by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming one of the foremost experts in Chin Na in the world. In addition to years of training in Chin Na I have many of his excellent works on the subject. To seize and control is his translation of Chin Na which is why I posted thus. Since he is one of the world's foremost experts, and Chinese perhaps you should inform him that he is not fully aware of it's meaning

I see you once again skipped over the Pangainoon comment question. Any reason for this?

:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Fringe dweller,

It would be wonderful if a few folks would discontinue making unsubstantiated statements or trying to color public opinion with debator's tricks and tactics. We shall see....

:asian: