Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[Sojobo]

'Mansplaining' I like it.

Well if that's what you call quoting from primary source then il take that over female logic

 

[Tez3]

'Mansplaining' I like it.

Well if that's what you call quoting from primary source then il take that over female logic

Not logic, experience. Every post I have put up about Wado Ryu here you have disagreed with and say the opposite in a superior way which is tiresome because it seems personal. So no I'm not hugely interested in re-reading something I have already read, maybe even before you did. I told you what my instructors from many many years ago said, obviously to you they were lying, so be it. I'm done.

 

[Sojobo]

Tez,

Nothing personal I assure you.

And the written word can often be mistaken in terms of tone.

Regarding Wado though this is the problem.

Many of the senior Wado instructors here in the UK (I'm talking 7th and 8th dans) don't get it.

Why, because Wado in the UK is broken and has been for decades.

Fact is - because they don't get it they cling to what is tangible and seemingly self evident.

That sets people down the wrong path with wrong goals and objectives and that's a shame, because Wado is a great art and much much more than a self defence system.

 

[Flying Crane]

If it really was a do or die self-defence situation I would take the mentality over limiting myself to the moves any day.

May I ask, what do you mean when you say "limiting myself to the moves"?

I apologize if this is a reference to a prior post, I haven't read the entir thread.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Tez,

Nothing personal I assure you.
And the written word can often be mistaken in terms of tone.
Regarding Wado though this is the problem.
Many of the senior Wado instructors here in the UK (I'm talking 7th and 8th dans) don't get it.
Why, because Wado in the UK is broken and has been for decades.
Fact is - because they don't get it they cling to what is tangible and seemingly self evident.
That sets people down the wrong path with wrong goals and objectives and that's a shame, because Wado is a great art and much much more than a self defence system.

So... enlighten us all, please, as to exactly what qualifies YOU to decide it's broken. Thanks.

 

[Sojobo]

So... enlighten us all, please, as to exactly what qualifies YOU to decide it's broken. Thanks.

Do you train in Wado in the UK?

 

[Sojobo]

So... enlighten us all, please, as to exactly what qualifies YOU to decide it's broken. Thanks.

If I could edit my post I would to say that - Wado in the UK (to a large degree) is broken.

There are pockets / groups that do 'get it' but they are in the minority.

To an extent, Wado-ryu (in the UK anyway) is a victim of its own success - in that its popularity in the late 60's and 70's meant that there are now scores of senior dan grades that (in the most part) broke away from the traditional teachings of the Japanese at 3rd dan (or below). These guys are now 7th and 8th dan 'Shihans' that - in my experience - were taken out of the oven before they were fully cooked (in fact it isn't confined to British born sensei's. Some of the early Japanese instructors that came over to the UK to spread the Wado word were fresh out of university at the time - and that helped fuel things).

Consequently (and I have decades of training along many of these guys to justify this statement) - they do not have enough depth of understanding in terms of the 'pedagogy' of Wado-ryu and how it fits into the 'Japanese' spectrum of Budo (the pinch of salt analogy) and instead look to Okinawan Karate / Shotokan to fill in the gaps.

This is easier and at first glance the seemingly obvious answer - but it isn't and so the cycle continues.

 

[Ademadis]

May I ask, what do you mean when you say "limiting myself to the moves"?

I apologize if this is a reference to a prior post, I haven't read the entir thread.

As in practical application of Karate in a self-defence situation varies a lot from stances and moves in Kata and sparring. And so should be treated more like guidelines than targets. (If that makes sense?)

I really should have proofread that post before I sent it, I tend to type in circles trying to sound smart xD

 

[Tez3]

If I could edit my post I would to say that - Wado in the UK (to a large degree) is broken.

There are pockets / groups that do 'get it' but they are in the minority.

To an extent, Wado-ryu (in the UK anyway) is a victim of its own success - in that its popularity in the late 60's and 70's meant that there are now scores of senior dan grades that (in the most part) broke away from the traditional teachings of the Japanese at 3rd dan (or below). These guys are now 7th and 8th dan 'Shihans' that - in my experience - were taken out of the oven before they were fully cooked (in fact it isn't confined to British born sensei's. Some of the early Japanese instructors that came over to the UK to spread the Wado word were fresh out of university at the time - and that helped fuel things).

Consequently (and I have decades of training along many of these guys to justify this statement) - they do not have enough depth of understanding in terms of the 'pedagogy' of Wado-ryu and how it fits into the 'Japanese' spectrum of Budo (the pinch of salt analogy) and instead look to Okinawan Karate / Shotokan to fill in the gaps.

This is easier and at first glance the seemingly obvious answer - but it isn't and so the cycle continues.

Wow, I guess you are going to also back the new 'functional TKD' as being good as well, because that's the biggest 'I know better than everyone because I'm more knowledgeable, better and I'm right, everyone else is wrong' post I've read for a long time.
If you are going to take that attitude it's simply a waste of time trying to converse.

 

[Sojobo]

Tez,

Why is it that when someone presents an alternative to the way that you chose to perceive things - you suggest that it is not worth any further involvement?

Let's take this back a step or two...

It was suggested that Karate is only about Self Defence and when I suggested that Wado was not (and presented source reference to support that affirmation) - you get all stroppy and suggest that my posts are unnecessarily aloof and personal.

You know in life - you have to accept that you may not always be right?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I also train Wado Ryu and I would disagree with you quite strongly. The fact he trained with Choki Motobu and disagreed with Funakoshi over sparring shows a more combative nature.
that people chose to use it as a keep fit session is probably not what he had in mind when he formed Wado. Also the Yakusoku Kumite and Kihon Gumite show techniques which are the traditional use of karate, combat. Ohyogumite is a system of attacks and defences, if one were to not bring combat/self defence into the style why would one train these?
Karate is old, older than Wado and Shotokan as you know, it's most likely that Shotokan was devised with a more peaceful intent but as Otsuka disagreed with him plus added elements of other more combative styles I don't think he intended it to be not for self defence. The Pinan katas I don't think would have been chosen just for fitness or some sort of spirituality. http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/there-nothing-peaceful-about-pinansCertainly instructors I know who trained under him were sure it was about self defence and frankly I wouldn't argue with them who knew him.

Tez, can you give me a short description of the difference/disagreement about sparring you mention between Motobu and Funakoshi, or point me toward an article? I'm starting to learn a bit more about the differences among the styles of Karate, and this seems key to these two styles.

 

[Tez3]

you suggest that it is not worth any further involvement?

That is self evident, to stop it descending into an argument and having the thread locked.

You know in life - you have to accept that you may not always be right?

Actually it's not me saying I'm right, I told you what my instructors said, you then launched into a derogatory account of how UK Wado Ryu is rubbish, it's instructors incompetent etc. You on the other hand are Wado perfection, which is amusing.

unnecessarily aloof and personal

Oxymoron.

Tez, can you give me a short description of the difference/disagreement about sparring you mention between Motobu and Funakoshi, or point me toward an article? I'm starting to learn a bit more about the differences among the styles of Karate, and this seems key to these two styles

Certainly, just give me a bit of time, I'm on my mobile phone out and about, will sort when I get to my computer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just about to start Keiko, so I'll expand later.

In the meantime have a read of the Otsuka family Wado website...

和道流空手道連盟

Section around reasons for training Wado

That actually speaks to the reasons for studying "martial arts", not specifically Wado. It appears to be speaking to the "do" side of martial arts, that we should be improving our lives through that study, rather than just learning to fight. Nothing there implies Wado isn't designed, studied, or taught for self-defense.

 

[Sojobo]

That actually speaks to the reasons for studying "martial arts", not specifically Wado. It appears to be speaking to the "do" side of martial arts, that we should be improving our lives through that study, rather than just learning to fight. Nothing there implies Wado isn't designed, studied, or taught for self-defense.

And by not saying - implies that it is?

Otsuka and his Wado creation is a complex one that is intertwined with Japanese history and politics of the time. It is less a Karate than a version of Otsuka's take on Budo - it simply uses the chassis of Funakoshi's karate for something to build on but that's as far as the similarities go.

And that thought process applies to it's intended purpose or should I say reason for study.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And by not saying - implies that it is?

Otsuka and his Wado creation is a complex one that is intertwined with Japanese history and politics of the time. It is less a Karate than a version of Otsuka's take on Budo - it simply uses the chassis of Funakoshi's karate for something to build on but that's as far as the similarities go.

And that thought process applies to it's intended purpose or should I say reason for study.

You pointed to that page as a clear sign that Wado is not for self-defense. The page speaks to the philosophy of budo in general, not to the art, itself. I didn't use it as an example for any argument, you did, and I simply pointed out that it doesn't provide any valid support. It would be like me arguing that English is a complex language (it is) and pointing as evidence to a site that says linguistics is a complex topic.

 

[Tez3]

Motobu and Funakoshi,

Funakoshi vs Motobu – How Two Fierce Rivals Shared Students

A Meeting With Chosei Motobu, by Graham Noble

Master Funakoshi's Karate, Part I, by Graham Noble

Not sure if this is what you had in mind.

 

[Sojobo]

To understand Wado and how it ticks, you should not look at Karate and its "Self Defence" reasoning.

Instead you need to look at the Koryu arts of feudal Japan upon which Wado is based.

Most of the principles of Wado (in terms of movement and application) are derived from sword oriented bu-jutsu.

Lets be quite clear - these were not intended to be used by the layman as a method of self protection against "ruffians" they were aggressive techniques designed to take out (by killing or maiming) your enemy.

Otsuka was very well versed in these arts and recognised that there was a gap in the market between Judo and Aikido to make a "Japanese karate" that engaged the principles or Koryu bujutsu (in terms of cultural assets of Japan) to promote the "self improvement" side of training in the martial arts.

In this respect it is a study of martial movement and principles over and above it being a method of self defence.

 

[Sojobo]

You on the other hand are Wado perfection, which is amusing.

Far from it - I'm perhaps a little further down the Wado path than you are, but I am still training, learning and growing everyday.

 

[Tez3]

Lets be quite clear - these were not intended to be used by the layman as a method of self protection against "ruffians" they were aggressive techniques designed to take out (by killing or maiming) your enemy.

.

I think you have a strange idea of self defence if you think it's not for taking out someone attacking you, enemy or not. I would hope techniques were done aggressively, not a lot of point of half heartedly defending yourself like a fop. I don't think anyone has suggested that martial arts were a 'layman's' game, studying any martial art makes you more than a layman.

Far from it - I'm perhaps a little further down the Wado path than you are, but I am still training, learning and growing everyday.

You assume you have been training longer than I have? Anyone with half a brain will have realised that you have called out my instructors and promoted yourself as being superior to them and their instructors as well. Your ideas of others in Wado leave a bad taste I'm afraid.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funakoshi vs Motobu – How Two Fierce Rivals Shared Students

A Meeting With Chosei Motobu, by Graham Noble

Master Funakoshi's Karate, Part I, by Graham Noble

Not sure if this is what you had in mind.

That is much of what I had in mind. If the founder of Wado was heavily influenced (as seems the case) by Motobu's teaching, I can't imagine that he didn't have combat (fighting) effectiveness among his goals for the style.

You mentioned a difference in opinion on sparring, but I didn't see anything specifically about that in the articles.