Do you mean rotating at the shoulder joint while my arm moves out?
Why the opening action??
- Thread starter karatejj
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Do you mean rotating at the shoulder joint while my arm moves out?
wckf92
Master of Arts
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ahhhhh now i get it thanks!!!!
is that also a secret WC move to confuse and finish multiple ppl off in one swift move LOL
- Thread Starter
- #106
Think this not too much too do wit wing shun!!
anerlich
Brown Belt
Shihan Patrick McCarthy, one of the more knowledgeable humans alive on Karate, bunkai, etc. etc. explained the apparent preponderance of wrist grab counters in TMA this way:
"If I can grab your throat or testicles, I can be damn sure you'll be trying to grab my wrist".
I said earlier that IMO the hand and arm movements in the cross collar choke are similar to those used in the opening sequence of the forms the way I do them, and I often tell Wing Chun students new to BJJ to move their arms in a similar fashion to complete the cross collar choke. I regard this as a fortuitous coincidence for that particular Jiu Jitsu teaching situation rather an indication of any application or intent by the developers of Wing Chun, who probably wouldn't have recognised a collar choke if it came up and bit them on the a$$.
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled sniping and backbiting.
Well, I'm not in the habit of going around grabbing people's balls.
So, I wouldn't need this to open every form, or be so central to my fighting strategy.
It's great you WC ball-grabbers have counters to the counter planned out.
Martial D talked about collar chokes being an intended part of the action.
So, his WC teaches a wrist-grab escape from a ball-grab counter, and a collar choke for ground fighting as its opening action.
Seems legit.
I've kept off this thread since I really don't see the point in taking a long time to craft a response when everybody seems to have their mind made up. So just this:
Applications are fun things, like tricks or baubles to show a beginner to catch their interest and keep them training. And, some tricks can be useful. But good VT/WC is not a bag of cheap tricks.
The opening movements in our VT/WC: Extend arms, pushing elbows forward to gow cha tan-sau, dropping straight down to gow cha gaun-sau, and roll arms inside (variant of kwun sau) and back up to gow cha tan sau, then withdrawing elbows and chambering fists high and horizontal, next to the chest...
These movements and positions are fundamental, and are expressed in almost all techniques. The elbow powering the arm, the shoulders dropped, relaxed, even, and square to the opponent --never "bladed", the wrists in tan sau crossed precisely on center, insuring correct position. There's the efficiency of the crossed gaun sau, falling exactly along the vertical mid-line and not deviating even a centimeter off-center, the rolling of the arms in the kwun-sau variant, passing from gaun, through dai-bong, and then back to tan sau, and the opening of the chest as the elbows pull back to chamber...
There is so much here that is essential as a mater of position and structure, and that appears in a thousand techniques and movements, that to explain it away with trick applications ...like a choke, freeing from a grip, or a testicle grab, just seems cheap and empty to me. Or as LFJ said, "skin and hair".
Applications are fun things, like tricks or baubles to show a beginner to catch their interest and keep them training. And, some tricks can be useful. But good VT/WC is not a bag of cheap tricks.
The opening movements in our VT/WC: Extend arms, pushing elbows forward to gow cha tan-sau, dropping straight down to gow cha gaun-sau, and roll arms inside (variant of kwun sau) and back up to gow cha tan sau, then withdrawing elbows and chambering fists high and horizontal, next to the chest...
These movements and positions are fundamental, and are expressed in almost all techniques. The elbow powering the arm, the shoulders dropped, relaxed, even, and square to the opponent --never "bladed", the wrists in tan sau crossed precisely on center, insuring correct position. There's the efficiency of the crossed gaun sau, falling exactly along the vertical mid-line and not deviating even a centimeter off-center, the rolling of the arms in the kwun-sau variant, passing from gaun, through dai-bong, and then back to tan sau, and the opening of the chest as the elbows pull back to chamber...
There is so much here that is essential as a mater of position and structure, and that appears in a thousand techniques and movements, that to explain it away with trick applications ...like a choke, freeing from a grip, or a testicle grab, just seems cheap and empty to me. Or as LFJ said, "skin and hair".
Eric_H
Black Belt
The opening of HFY SNT uses Tai Sao (long arm lifting) before sinking the bridge/body and opening into Yee Gee Kim Yueng Ma.
What it's meant to do is define your space and the theories we use to draw the mental model before moving into specific techniques. The Tai Sao represents Box Theory (What I can influence vs what I can't, front to back space) and the sinking shows 5-line theory (left-to right positions of structural correctness) and Tien Yan Dei (vertical positions of structural correctness).
Once you've defined how to operate in each of the three dimensions, the form moves along to the specific syllables. Each move of the opening can be used as techniques, but the theory/mode of operation is what's most important.
What it's meant to do is define your space and the theories we use to draw the mental model before moving into specific techniques. The Tai Sao represents Box Theory (What I can influence vs what I can't, front to back space) and the sinking shows 5-line theory (left-to right positions of structural correctness) and Tien Yan Dei (vertical positions of structural correctness).
Once you've defined how to operate in each of the three dimensions, the form moves along to the specific syllables. Each move of the opening can be used as techniques, but the theory/mode of operation is what's most important.
I agreed already to your post but I just had to add....... YES!!!!!!!
Good insight!
Wing Chun is concept based. It is a misconception that there is always an application. Applications or drills can be called upon to illustrate how things function, but you should never think in terms of applications. A big part of the learning curve is realizing that Wing Chun can create specific behavior and natural responses for fighting.
Well said!
But, by the same token, introducing variations of complex two-arm actions before even looking at the basic punch just seems excessive for the opening action of the very first form.
I'm not familiar with all the stuff Eric is describing above for his system. It's obviously not YMVT, but it makes more sense to establish your parameters before getting into specifics, and simple before complex.
Good post! But the difference here is that you admit that there is a basic interpretation or layer and that simple applications can be described to keep a beginner's attention. In contrast, LFJ laughed at everyone that offered a basic interpretation for beginners, required some significant goading to get him to actually post his own answer to the OP, and then was rather vague and didn't give a very good explanation. LFJ laughed at the "skin and hair" and then gave a somewhat deficient "muscle and bone."
I know you are agreeing with him in multiple threads to try and get him to play nice. But I think it is a lost cause. He is just going to feel justified in carrying on in his usual fashion.
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anerlich
Brown Belt
I regard much of what you do on here, like cherry picking phrases from people's posts for ridicule, taking the most twisted interpretation of their words, etc. As mental masturbation. Since mental masturbation's physical counterpart is not a large logical (or physical) distance from grabbing the testicles, I figured you'd be down with it. My bad, apologies.
Many if not most Chinese and Japanese styles have the groin as a legitimate target, I've learned a number of forms from other styles which regard the groin and throat (whose use as a target you overlooked for ridicule, pick up your game) as targets.
Perhaps the PBWSLVT conceptual approach scorns the use of actual anatomical targets. You guys might never want to actually hit anyone anywhere, lest the PBWSLVT conceptual foundation collapse like the wave condition in Schrodinger's famous experiment when the box is opened, and the poor cat's ultimate fate becomes reality rather than theory.
Is the above mental masturbation? Perhaps, but compared to yourself I am a struggling dilettante.
Can this primarily physical endeavour be over-conceptualised? Are we in danger of becoming the theoreticians scorned by Terence Neihoff on KFO?
My sidais Ethan Dunham won his MMA fight in Adelaide last week. My stuff works. You can stick your conceptual validation in that place near the objects you don't want to grab.
anerlich
Brown Belt
RNC, thanks for asking.
