why ninjutsu?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The link I provided already alluded to the fact that some samurai were actually ninjas out of school and some some ninjas were actually samurai off duty. Those however are generally speaking the exception and not the standard. ..........

Nope. It was the other way around.

Don't forget that as a rice peasant in 16th century Japan you probably had other, more mundane things to worry about than perfecting your taijutsu.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Oh.dong.like protecting their families and preserving enough food ( as opposed to paying it as tax to the samurai) to keep everyone alive...... yap......no doubt...... hmmmmm.crazy that they should be involved in conceiving such a thing as an art to protect themselves ......

And now you're telling us that despite the fact ninjutsu was created to combat samarai and the hardships their raiding brought about, most ninjutsu practitioners were actually samurai in masquerade ??? What a nice bunch of guys ha

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

And now you're telling us that despite the fact ninjutsu was created to combat samarai and the hardships their raiding brought about, most ninjutsu practitioners were actually samurai in masquerade ??? What a nice bunch of guys ha

Ninjutsu, like jujutsu, kenjutsu, yarijutsu etc., was designed by bushi to make life miserable for other bushi...

And WHAT raiding???

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I am really tired Nimravas and because I want to post some links to support my statements, I am going to come back to this one tommorow.

cheers

 

[heretic888]

Just to clarify, Blooming Lotus, when you say "ninja" are you specifically referring to the Iga/Koga groups and their offshoots (like Kishu ryu)??

Or, do you just mean anyone in the Sengoku Jidai that was sneaky??

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Okay, to be frank I'm kind of still in han yu ( chinese language) mode and these names you're rolling out are all french ( or Japanese as the case may be ) to me, regardless of whether I've heard them before or not. I'm about to go a search and confirm mission though to find something corroborative, so leave it with me.

Blooming Lotus

btw : bushi is a generic term for the warrior class of fuedal / pre-fuedal Japan anyway so I can't see your point. Actually I do, but if consider that an opposing art to combat the attackers art is making them miserable..I guess I do and would have to agree. Silly point though. ( well duuh)

How about we start with "what is a ryu" find it here http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wmuromoto3.html


ninjutsu was extremely discreet by definition for so long anyway, that regarless of what either of find or have read, I'm not sure how accurate any of it'd even be!! Past records are dodgy and there are in all systems conflicting information, nice to know what everyone is saying anyway.


Q. if shogun is a term for army general / warrior leader............. why does it keep comming up unless its context of that same shogun being reputedly responsible for conceiving any particular branch??

 

[Blooming Lotus]

How do you equate samurai and ninjutsu and try to pass it off as halves of one system anyway??? One's bujutsu ( battlefield art) and the budo ( personal art)???:idunno: Obviously in context of my own perspective described above sequitous to logic that the budo would be conceived by the raidee to combat the "battelfeild" system the bujutsu player made of their villages. Budong your anlge.

for a clear explaination on the difference between budo bujutsu pls see here http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

BL

 

[Blooming Lotus]

great Iga link conccurring my statements of being seperate to and in social - subserviancy and opposition to samurai http://home.iprimus.com.au/erinsaraci/Info/iga.html

cheers

BL

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Just to clarify, Blooming Lotus, when you say "ninja" are you specifically referring to the Iga/Koga groups and their offshoots (like Kishu ryu)??

Or, do you just mean anyone in the Sengoku Jidai that was sneaky??

budong ( don't understand) !!! WE are talking about an art of intellectual stragegy here and if "sneaky" is quantified by having the best strategy to ensure your and your familes lives and conituance, I guess so. Sneaky is irrelevant, these folks were fighting for their lives ...you do what what works. .. and it did......

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

How do you equate samurai and ninjutsu and try to pass it off as halves of one system anyway???

So now "samurai" is it's own system. Brilliant.

One's bujutsu ( battlefield art) and the budo ( personal art)???:idunno:

Ninjutsu IS a bujutsu!!

Obviously in context of my own perspective described above sequitous to logic that the budo would be conceived by the raidee to combat the "battelfeild" system the bujutsu player made of their villages.

There raiding you speak of never took place!!

btw : bushi is a generic term for the warrior class of fuedal / pre-fuedal Japan anyway so I can't see your point. Actually I do, but if consider that an opposing art to combat the attackers art is making them miserable..I guess I do and would have to agree. Silly point though.

Ninja were samurai/bushi AND the other way around. The martial arts of Japan were created by the same.

Either you're trolling or you're still living in the 80's. None of the alternatives are helpful here.

 

[Cryozombie]

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[Bester]

Nim,
Ninjutsu is an interesting art, with a lot of misconceptions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations, especially by those who rely on the Geocities or Tripodized regurgitations of the fictions of the warped minds of Hollywood writers, greedy gaijin, baka academics, and other wakawakashii bakabakashii types.

Just place them on ignore and let them wonder why their little flashybombs don't make them invisible.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Samurai were army class and the early ninja came from opposition of that. I don't care anyway...I hate chasing tails so I'm done. ( unl;ess of course you have links correlating your story from someone other than the first writer you posted from. Fair's fair, I gave you several)



Cheers



Blooming Lotus

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Proof, please?

 

[heretic888]

great Iga link conccurring my statements of being seperate to and in social - subserviancy and opposition to samurai http://home.iprimus.com.au/erinsaraci/Info/iga.html

I know this might be a shock, Miss Lotus, but that website is not even vaguely concerned with Japanese history. If you will got to the homepage, you will notice that its creator identifies it all as works of fiction that he created.

Apparently, its his/her adaptation of some videogame or roleplaying game called "Fantasy Powers League". No history, I'm afraid.

 

[heretic888]

budong ( don't understand) !!! WE are talking about an art of intellectual stragegy here and if "sneaky" is quantified by having the best strategy to ensure your and your familes lives and conituance, I guess so. Sneaky is irrelevant, these folks were fighting for their lives ...you do what what works. .. and it did......

Very simply, Miss Lotus, if you are indeed referring to "ninja" as a catchall phrase for anyone that was sneaky or stealthy in feudal Japan, then you will find a very LARGE range of individuals fit this bill --- kuge, buke, bonge, and hinin.

Such methods were not unique to any particular social class. In fact, such methods are not unique to any particular culture.

Takeda Shingen and his rival Kenshin Uesugi, for example, both made widespread use of spies, scouts, and guerilla fighters --- none of whom were necessarily connected to the "ninja" clans of Iga and Koga. The most common use of "covert soldiers" were the kusa ("grass") --- spear-holding ashigaru trained to hide in long strands of grass to spy on enemy armies and ambush advance ranks.

If you are referring to "ninja" as referring to special groups like the Iga-shu and Koga-shu, however, then you will find your range of individuals to be considerably lessened.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Takeda Shingen and his rival Kenshin Uesugi, for example, both made widespread use of spies, scouts, and guerilla fighters --- none of whom were necessarily connected to the "ninja" clans of Iga and Koga.

Actually I seem to recall that was the case, at least with the Takeda clan. Check up the kunoichi Chiyome Mochizuki and her ties to Koga ryu, for instance.
Let's not forget that the Iga ninja spread all over Japan following the invasion by Nobunaga. Furthermore, Gyokushin ryu was according to some sources frequently taught in the Kishu province.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

that link I provided and the other are available to yourselves via our friend google. pls feel free to research for yourself. The Iga link just says the same as others you'll find there, so be my guest. You still haven't given anything back yourself bar your first ( which I consider dodgy an without academic credibilty) attempt. At least you're aware there are other views and reports, so my work here is done.

BL

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Bet it broke your heart to learn that balisong knives, sai and nunchaku weren't ninja weapons too, huh?

 

[Bester]

Do not confuse the baka with facts. Some people like to believe everything they read on the internet.

Me, I will stick with the Atlantian Ninja origin myself.

It explains so much.