why ninjutsu?

[Cryozombie]

that link I provided and the other are available to yourselves via our friend google. pls feel free to research for yourself. The Iga link just says the same as others you'll find there, so be my guest. You still haven't given anything back yourself bar your first ( which I consider dodgy an without academic credibilty) attempt. At least you're aware there are other views and reports, so my work here is done.

BL

Here are some other sources, including the words of Grandmaster Hatsumi. The accounts are slightly different than the account on the Videogame link you provided. (BTW, that was Freedom Force, a fun little superhero game for PC)

http://www.mbdojo.com/togakureryu.htm

http://www.mbdojo.com/iga.htm

http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Thanks for the links, but keep in mind that the last text comes from "History and Tradition" which was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes.

 

[heretic888]

Actually I seem to recall that was the case, at least with the Takeda clan. Check up the kunoichi Chiyome Mochizuki and her ties to Koga ryu, for instance.

Meh, I stand partially corrected.

You will note that I commented on the two warlords making widespread use of unconventional forces that did not necessarily tie to the Iga and Koga groups. Mochizuki Chiyome clearly did, but several others did not.

The point being that "shadow" warfare was rather common in the Sengoku Jidai, and if you're going to call everyone that did that a "ninja" then you've got a whole range of individuals in that category. Some samurai, and some not.

Let's not forget that the Iga ninja spread all over Japan following the invasion by Nobunaga.

If I recall correctly, Nobunaga didn't invade Iga until around 1585, no??

 

[heretic888]

that link I provided and the other are available to yourselves via our friend google. pls feel free to research for yourself. The Iga link just says the same as others you'll find there, so be my guest. You still haven't given anything back yourself bar your first ( which I consider dodgy an without academic credibilty) attempt. At least you're aware there are other views and reports, so my work here is done.

Miss Lotus, speaking from personal experience, internet resources very rarely make for sound research --- especially when "ninja" are involved. Most of the "ninja histories" floating around online are simply regurgitated editions of stuff that Hayes wrote in the 1980's.

Which, by the way, he has pretty much redacted in his later works. In Ninja Vol. 5: Lore of the Shinobi Warrior, for example, Hayes spends an entire chapter debunking popular "ninja myths" (some of which he perpetuated in his earlier work) --- including the "ninja were persecuted peasants", the "ninja-to was a cheap straight sword with a square tsuba", the "shinobi shozoku was a historical ninja suit", and so on.

You would be far better off reading some of Stephen Turnbull's stuff on the subject. Hatsumi-soke's books are indispensable, as well (particularly for an "insider's" viewpoint on the subject).

 

[Blooming Lotus]

well from my experience researching shaolin gongfu and buddhism for my phd , then travelling there to confirm it all from the horses mouth, I 've got to beg to differ. Btw : hello.....we are on the internet ourselves this moment . Pls see corresponding threads for other links.


cheers boys

Blooming Lotus

 

[Cryozombie]

well from my experience researching shaolin gongfu and buddhism for my phd , then travelling there to confirm it all from the horses mouth, I 've got to beg to differ. Btw : hello.....we are on the internet ourselves this moment . Pls see corresponding threads for other links.


cheers boys

Blooming Lotus

Im confused by this statement, maybe I am misreading you... are you saying hearing firsthand about Kung Fu and Buhddism in China are more reliable sources on the history of the Ninja that those that come from the "Last Ninja" Grandmaster living in Japan? How odd.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

More likely than not. What I am saying is that the internet as a source of credible information is perfectly sound, as I proved to myself ( and many others at home and abroad) when I went to China to confirm and clarify it all.

btw on last ninja gm , I hope we're not talking about who I think we are and frankly, no doubt he knows , but what ever you did or didn't get off him nor others nor how it's been interperated and transgressed is hardly the point. Moooving on.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ok.

Sure.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The point being that "shadow" warfare was rather common in the Sengoku Jidai, and if you're going to call everyone that did that a "ninja" then you've got a whole range of individuals in that category. Some samurai, and some not.

Agreed.

If I recall correctly, Nobunaga didn't invade Iga until around 1585, no??

Something along those lines, though I seem to recall it being two or three years earlier...gonna have to check up that. But what about Hakuunsai Tozawa and the Hakuun ryu, way before "the golden age" of ninja for instance...?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

More likely than not. What I am saying is that the internet as a source of credible information is perfectly sound, as I proved to myself ( and many others at home and abroad) when I went to China to confirm and clarify it all.

Go to Japan and try to do the same thing in this case...

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Believe me, Hatsumi Sensei and I have a date down the track, but first some med study and a belt to steal.

BL

 

[heretic888]

What I am saying is that the internet as a source of credible information is perfectly sound, as I proved to myself ( and many others at home and abroad) when I went to China to confirm and clarify it all.

The problem, Miss Lotus, is not that there are no sound sources to be found on the internet. Rather, as Don pointed out in another thread, that you can find internet sources to support practically anything. In essence, it is a matter of winnowing the wheat from the chaff. If you will.

For example, online articles that do not cite their sources should immediately send out alarms to one's inner scientist.

Point is, there's good stuff online and there's crapola online. Just tossing links in our direction doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Not anymore than tossing a book title proves anything, unless you actually discuss the content of the book and the sources for said content.

F'shizzle. :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Believe me, Hatsumi Sensei and I have a date down the track, but first some med study and a belt to steal.

BL

I thought Hatsumi was already married?

 

[heretic888]

But what about Hakuunsai Tozawa and the Hakuun ryu, way before "the golden age" of ninja for instance...?

*shrugs* I'm not entirely certain one could classify Tozawa Hakuunsai as a "ninja" in the conventional sense of the word, nor do I know anything about the purported content of Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu. Then again, this could be said of Togakure Daisuke and the Togakure ryu of the time, as well. The "ninja" from Iga and Koga don't seem to have become active as such until the latter 1400's.

Of course, this is unverified oral history we're talking about. The entire notion that Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo, for example, was a retainer to Minamoto Yoritomo and granted governorship of Iga as a reward is rather dubious (since, from what I've read, Iga was a shouen to the Todaiji during most of the Heian Jidai).

*shrugs again* So, who knows, really?? :idunno: