why ninjutsu?

[Kalifallen]

Why did I choose ninjutsu?
Ever since reading the '80s comics of the Ninja Turtles (Mirage) I've been hooked. I loved the wide variety that you could learn. Stealth, weapons, camoflauge, concealment, climbing, movement, varying combat (grappling, joint locks, throws, etc), and sooooo much more. Plus the history is fasinating and the mental and spiritual abilities are great too besides the physical.

 

[Satt]

Why not?

 

[Limeydog]

Hi All,

I have wanted to study nnjutsu since a young boy growing up in the UK, sadly at that time I couldn't find a dojo in my area so I ended up training in Full Contact Karate, followed by Muay Thai/Wado Ryu/Kempo/American Kenpo and finally Budo Taijutsu. 25 years later I found my first Ninjutsu instructor in a small town called Sonora. It was truly love at first sight. I feel honored to have had trained (even though it was only for a year) with Shihan Bill Atkins of the Bujinkan TenChiJin dojo. He basicaly took all of my knowledge and techniques and threw them out of the window. Shihan Atkins is the first teacher who acually stopped every one of my techniques that I threw at him. Ever since moving to LA I have tried to train with other dojo's but never found one I liked. Now I train in Toshindo.

Patrick

 

[Gary Arthur]

In reply to animedge and others, the question is can we really call ourselves Ninja. From my point of view the people we call ninja were a cultural group. That is they had their own language, poems, diet, songs, architecture, beliefs etc and according to various historical and genetic evidence were of a different origin than the mainstream Japanese.
Based on this then if I for example studied Apache Indian Knife fighting, regrdless of how good I was I could never be an Apache Indian, in the true sense. I could only be an Englishman skilled in Apache Indian Knife Fighting.
I consider myself then not a Ninja, but an Englishman somewhat skilled in the Ninja Arts.
I know that some will point out that the word NIN means "Perserverance and Endurance" and if one is training to achieve that then one is a Ninja. But really how many of us in todays world have had to endure anything except a long wait at the supermarket kiosk to get our food. And if this is the way we classify Ninja then maybe we could say that the Jews that were imprisoned in concentration camps should bear the title NINJA, as well as other groups that have gone through such harsh extremes.
Anyway, to call yourself a Ninja in this day and age is likely to be met with dirision.
I much prefer to keep my Ninja arts secret, and only use them in extremes.
Even when I teach a class I very rarely teach Ninja techniques i.e. Togakure Ryu techniques and relates arts (if that makes sense)
Didn't Takamatsu Sensei say something like "First become a gentleman, then if you are attacked use Jujutsu, only when you have no other choice should you use Ninjutsu"

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

From my point of view the people we call ninja were a cultural group. That is they had their own language, poems, diet, songs, architecture, beliefs etc and according to various historical and genetic evidence were of a different origin than the mainstream Japanese.

I'd be very interested to hear your sources on this???
The way I understand it is that the view of ninja as an ethnic group (other than the inhabitants of Iga and Koga, not all of which received any type of martial training) was a grossly inaccurate one advocated by Stephen Hayes under the 80's, which during latter years both he and historians like Stephen Turnbull and Karl Friday have discarded, in the case of the two latter (at least) in favor of the much more reasonable theory that the shinobi no mono were specialized bushi that were trained in a manner which can be compared with that of the Army Rangers or other special forces units nowadays. Also, if there is anyone who still believes that the ninja were always of lower social status than "other samurai", then you'd be wise to take a quick look in the translation of the Bansenshukai (the author of which belonged to the castle in Iga-Ueno, by the way...).

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I like that you gave something back nimravus, perhaps I'll just reserve my judgement . However, I am fairly sure I can find a link to support the theory that at some point close to conception, they were absolutely in a different social standing to samurai. Leave it with me and I'll post it when I have enough time to search and read through it all. I think the point in time during the ninjutsu history is likely where the discrepancy is going to lay.

For myself, on the original question, I only studied ninjutsu last yr at a very basic lvl, but since then have travelled throughout china ( and all over the east coast of Australia prior, and Nth Island NZ prior that ( all seeking ma ) ) and have seen and sampled soo many different styles . On top of that, it's only really been through a series of discussions with maers from other styles and my research and research networking with those who know ( ie :- chinese army friends / chinese police / mag editors/ authors / ex and current title holders/ folks who've trained title holders/ shifus/ long time students/ gongfu playing chinese history majors etc etc , that I have come to realise how original and irreplacebale alot of ninjutsus techs really are comparitively. I still like my aikido ( and quietly even prefer their rolls ) but when it comes to my art of choice for grappling, I'm going with ninjutsu and I can't see my passion for it changing for a long time to come.

Btw : has anyone here been to Hatsumi senseis dojo in Japan and how did you find that??? If I get a taker I might take it to a new thread.

Cheers

Blooming Lotus

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hattori Hanzo, Yagyu and Ura-yagyu, Fujibayashi Masatake, the Toda family...there are way too many high-ranking historical bushi that had received "ninja training" or served as such for that theory to be believable.
The easiest comparison with modern armed forces would be if you looked at a soldier who had been trained as a demolitions expert, pointman, sniper etc. It's something he's trained to do when it's required of him, but that doesn't affect his social status in civilian life in any way.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Budwai!!! ( incorrect!!!) That is such a crock!!! In the Asias over the time when these arts were being conceived people were extremly poor and their living was directly related to their martial skills, with hopes that they would be good enough to join the armed forces and bring honour and prosperity to their families. Of course the organisations and their members grewin wealth after that!! I said it was effective . The only reason I mention my army friends, is because you'd think if anyone wants to / needs to / has to know who's using what art and some solid facts surrounding it , including politically , they are the ones!



Btw : Is that you taking all my freakin rep points???

That's okay..... have them!!! won't miss what I never had I guess ( rolleyes@you )

BL

 

[Don Roley]

Budwai!!! ( incorrect!!!) That is such a crock!!! In the Asias over the time when these arts were being conceived people were extremly poor and their living was directly related to their martial skills, with hopes that they would be good enough to join the armed forces and bring honour and prosperity to their families.

Perhaps it would be best if you provided some sort of reference to this very gross generalization. Especially as it relates to Japan instead of treating all of Asia as being the same.

Nimravus has listed several well- placed families that were known for being involved in ninjutsu. I think you need to provide just as solid a source instead of making statements with such certainty.

And please, try to keep calm. Using terms like "that is such a crock" is frowned upon here.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

apology for the frankness and believe what you like. He still didn't give a link nor a time / date, so to me that statement is practically useless.



BL

don't look now pot but I think you're black aswell
from kettle

 

[Don Roley]

apology for the frankness and believe what you like. He still didn't give a link nor a time / date, so to me that statement is practically useless.

Well, if you want a link then go ahead and look at this article on the Koga ryu to kind of see a little about the background of many of the people that would later be known as ninja. The author has listed his sources at the bottom and is rather well known as someone willing to debate history.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

on chinese origins http://www.ninjutsu.com/Kukishinden%20RyuNL.shtml

on the dubious nature of "historical tracings" http://www.ninpo.org/ninpohistory/ninpohistory.html
Also speaks of the samurai class distintiction as superior to rest of population.

from article above

Quote [ "Ninjutsu, for the most part, was the fighting skills and methods practiced by a small number of families who belonged to the lower classes and outcasts, and only rarely by warriors belonging to the samurai elite" ]


Bl

 

[Don Roley]

So now we have dueling resources. Much better than just stating things as if they were facts. We can look at the sources and what they are based on and judge from there.

And I do happen to think that the Koga ryu article and the sources it lists are a bit better than the ones you listed. After all, the 53 families of the Koga ryu were clearly on a level to negotiate with the head of Omi province. It is kind of hard to imagine those 53 as being a, "small number of families who belonged to the lower classes and outcasts".

I would guess that you feel differently.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

the koga one is better right??? He says himself as the basis of his whole first arguement that in fact , you're pronouncing and spelling it wrong because it's koka and obviously those calling it koga, just don't know what they're on about. ( rolleyes@ the guys accuracy....I mean idiodcy!)

 

[Don Roley]

the koga one is better right??? He says himself as the basis of his whole first arguement that in fact , you're pronouncing and spelling it wrong because it's koka and obviously those calling it koga, just don't know what they're on about. ( rolleyes@ the guys accuracy....I mean idiodcy!)

Did you bother to check out the name of the guy who wrote it? :wink2:

But if you will engage me in a calm debate, I ask you to look at the fact that the 53 families of Koga/ Kohka delt directly with the lord of Omi provence. They also had family names- which is not a sign of low status. This is just a historical fact backed up by numerous sources and records.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

on chinese origins http://www.ninjutsu.com/Kukishinden%20RyuNL.shtml

on the dubious nature of "historical tracings" http://www.ninpo.org/ninpohistory/ninpohistory.html
Also speaks of the samurai class distintiction as superior to rest of population.

from article above

Quote [ "Ninjutsu, for the most part, was the fighting skills and methods practiced by a small number of families who belonged to the lower classes and outcasts, and only rarely by warriors belonging to the samurai elite" ]


Bl

Anytime ninjutsu is said to have anything with physical techniques to do, there is reason to get suspicious.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I don't even know what to say that so I 'm just going to go over to the corner and have a quiet chuckle

 

[Satt]

Well, I studied Kenpo, Shootfighting, and Shotkan and I liked them, but they didn't inspire me. I liked Kenpo the best out of those three. Anyway, I saw a Discovery Channel special one day that had SKH in it and he seemed really interesting so I checked out his website. Ever since I ordered my first videos there is no turning back. I have never felt so inspired in my life!!! I hope to one day open up a dojo in my hometown when I am good enough. I want to spread the goodness!!! Ninjustu is DEFINATELY the art for me also just because it is so practical.

 

[Kizaru]

However, I am fairly sure I can find a link to support the theory that at some point close to conception, they were absolutely in a different social standing to samurai. Leave it with me and I'll post it when I have enough time to search and read through it all.

Followed by...

Hattori Hanzo, Yagyu and Ura-yagyu, Fujibayashi Masatake, the Toda family...there are way too many high-ranking historical bushi that had received "ninja training" or served as such for that theory to be believable.

I believe what Nimravus was getting at was that it's a well known fact that Hattori Hanzo was a "ninja" from a well known Samurai family, and served the shogun. Also, it's been documented that Yagyu Muneyoshi's wife was a woman from Iga believed to have come from a "ninja" family. Yagyu Muneyoshi being from the samurai class, would not have "married down" to a "different social standing". After Yagyu Shinkage ryu became patronized by the Tokugawa shogunate, rumors of "Yagyu ninja" became popular. In addition, Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu, the man whom Takamatsu Toshitsugu learned Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu and Gyokkshin ryu ninjutsu from was from a samurai family that had stretched back for generations. We can find documentation in the Budo ryuha daijiten (an encyclopedia of Japanese martial arts systems) that Asayama Ichiden ryu (a system used by samurai) at one point had a ninjutsu school within it, and the Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu (another samurai lineage) still has ninjutsu taught within it's cabal (although they do not refer to themselves as a "ninja" tradition, as it's not their focus). In short, we can find evidence that at multiple points in time, there were samurai "moonlighting" as "ninja".

"Blooming Lotus" wrote something to the effect of "at some point close to conception, they were absolutely in a different social standing to samurai".
What I'd like to ask here is, which ryu's conception are we talking about? In Iga there were more than 70 families, in Koga about 50 families. There's evidence that there were ryu active out of Buddhists temples as well, for example Haguro ryu out of Dewa Sanzan in Yamagata prefecture. If we look at the oral tradition of Togakure ryu, Nishina Daisuke, a samurai fighting under Kiso Yoshinaka fled to Togakure mountain after being on the losing side of a battle against the Taira clan. After fleeing, this samurai laid down the foundation for what would later come to be known as "Togakure ryu". Nishina Daisuke passed the foundation onto a samurai named Shima Kosanata no Minamoto no Kanesda who in turn passed it on to Togakure Goro who formalized it into "Togakure ryu".

This is why many of us who train in this tradition have abadoned the notion that it was only practiced by farmers defending their crops.

If I've made any mistakes here, please bring them to my attention.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

okay.how's this.....



The link I provided already alluded to the fact that some samurai were actually ninjas out of school and some some ninjas were actually samurai off duty. Those however are generally speaking the exception and not the standard. .......... So really, for the ones who weren't moonlighting samurai, I was stil right anyway.but to be honest... I don't care, it just means I can't talk to you about it is all


:flame:
later
BL