Why is Zen not emphasized in most dojos?

[Freestyler777]

Zen is a very important aspect of the martial arts. In fact, the ancient samurais learned Zen so they would be indifferent to life and death and therefore brave in battle. Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?

Is it because this is a faithless era in general, or is it because Zen has religious implications that threaten some people of different religious beliefs?

I think it is essential to practice Zen to be a martial artist. And, my opinion is, a karate master has to be a zen master if he is genuine. I don't know karate, i play sport judo, but I imagine that if one knows how to kill people, that skill should go hand in hand with reverence for life and an equanimity when dealing with everyday life problems. Zen teaches you how to be a good person, and to find your inner nature, before you became conditioned by societal expectations and peer pressure.

Reply if interested in this discussion, please.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I don't teach Zen but then again I don't teach a Japanese art. Given the art I do teach, bagua, I spend time teaching what I can of Daoist philosophy.

Personally, I'm not that big a fan of Zen. It is a strange modification of the Chan buddhism that grew at Shaolin which is itself a blending of Daoist philosophy with Dhyana Buddhism. Give me straight forward Daoism everytime.

 

[exile]

Zen is a very important aspect of the martial arts. In fact, the ancient samurais learned Zen so they would be indifferent to life and death and therefore brave in battle. Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?

Is it because this is a faithless era in general, or is it because Zen has religious implications that threaten some people of different religious beliefs?

I think it is essential to practice Zen to be a martial artist. And, my opinion is, a karate master has to be a zen master if he is genuine. I don't know karate, i play sport judo, but I imagine that if one knows how to kill people, that skill should go hand in hand with reverence for life and an equanimity when dealing with everyday life problems. Zen teaches you how to be a good person, and to find your inner nature, before you became conditioned by societal expectations and peer pressure.

Reply if interested in this discussion, please.

Look... people on this forum have been doing martial arts for decades in many cases. They are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what if any spirituality they need to bring to their MA activities. Your comment, `a karate master has to be a zen master if he is genuine' tells us nothing about being a karate master, being authentic, or anything else except one thing: your preconceptions. It also reveals that you know very, very little of the lives of some of the very greatest katate masters, many of whom would have laughed in your face if you told them what you're telling us. And—in view of your prescription for what it takes to be a karate master combined with your admission that you know nothing about karate—it also strongly suggests that you have no problem making ringing pronouncements on topics you know nothing about. This is definitely not a MA discussion board where you're going to find a welcome reception, if that's the case...

I happen to think that it is a crucial part of being a martial arts master of any kind that you keep your opinions of other people's spiritual lives to yourself. Care to discuss that?

 

[Kacey]

Like Steel Tiger, I do not teach a Japanese art - so why would I teach a Japanese philosophy? I do teach responsible use of the techniques I teach, but for many people, the use of Asian philosophy (or the philosophy of whatever region your art is from) would turn them away from, rather than onto, a martial art - especially in the beginning. Most (not all) people join a martial art initially for reasons related to the physical skills - emphasizing anything else early on could drive them away.

It was not until I had been in TKD for several years that I became interested in the philosophy behind what I had learned, beyond the required knowledge of pattern histories, some Korean terms, and some other MA-related information... and when I became interested, I discovered that I had already learned more than I'd realized, and had a base of knowledge, however small and specialized, from which to learn more. Had it been required that I learn it earlier, when I was still focused on the physical skills, I'd have left, and looked for a facility/style/instructor who taught what I was looking for.

If you are interested specifically in Zen in Japanese arts, perhaps you should post this in Japanese Martial Arts rather than General Martial Arts; if you are interested in the broader question of teaching philosophy in MA then you might wish to broaden your question to generate more responses.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Zen is a non Christian tradition.
Sean

 

[Freestyler777]

OK, allow me to address all posts. First of all, when I say Zen, I do not refer specifically to Zen/Chan Buddhism with the exclusion of all other spiritual systems. They're all rather similar if you ask me, and what I mean by 'Zen' is, harmony, serenity, nonviolence, equanimity, and reverence. These qualities should be considered good in any spiritual system/religion/philosophy. I happen to love Daoist thought, and I read both the Lao Tzu and the Chuang Tzu frequently.

To respond to Kacey, yes teaching the spiritual aspect of a martial art before the self-defense aspect is like putting the cart before the horse. But I think there must be some ethical training required to reach the higher levels of any martial art. Even in an art like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, which is quite harsh with all its challenge matches and MMA, it takes ten years to get a black belt, and that is only so the teacher can ensure he is entrusting the rank to someone of character and quality. If you just say, hey I teach self defense and I give knowledge and belts to just anyone, that is like giving children sharp swords. Even trust of a student's good nature is the 'Zen aspect' of the martial arts.

Touch of Death, I agree.

And finally, to reply to exile: All I am saying is, what good is it to anybody to master self-defense and not love and restraint? Teaching self defense without philosophy or ethics is basically churning out streetfighters and thugs (Dont take that too literally, I'm trying to illustrate a point). Like stated previously, I say 'Zen' to mean character and ethical training. Learning martial arts is inherently an act of self-improvement, even if it is just improving your fighting ability? Then why not improve the quality of a student's psyche as well as their ability to punch and kick? The Buddha once said, 'Although a good warrior might conquer a thousand men in battle, the greatest and best warrior conquers himself.' Self control is a vital aspect of the martial arts, whether it be self-defense karate or sport Judo. I just happen to use a quote from the Buddha to illustrate a point. I AM NOT PROMOTING ANY RELIGION! I am talking about teaching the philosophy as well as the fighting to students who have completed the beginning stages of development. Streetfighters are thugs! Martial Artists should be gentlemen!

But that is only my opinion.

 

[Carol]

The literary work that has had the most influence on the English language is the King James Bible. The KJV introduced new words that are still in use today such as "scapegoat" and "peacemaker".

Many phrases and idiomatic expressions first expressed in the KJV are still in common use today. "Bite the dust", "flesh and blood", "as old as the hills", "the blind leading the blind", "fight the good fight", "sour grapes", "how the mighty have fallen", "the powers that be", and many more phrases are from the KJV.

Yet, a person can communicate beautifully in English without being Christian or knowing where these phrases came from.Zen Buddhism also has very strong roots to the culture of Japan and parts of China. The influences were steeped in to the fighting arts. However, Silat is from Indonesia. The Sumatran people are largely Muslim, the Balinese largely Hindu. Kali is from the Philippines are home to a large number of Buddhists, Muslims, Christians (majority Catholic), and some Hindus. Teach just one philosophy, that would not be fair to the others. Teach all philosophies and we would never get in any training time.

My school has done a lot to promote the exploration and understanding of the cultures that shaped our arts. My instructors plan regular trips to the Philippines, to Indonesia so we can experience everything ourselves. But, when we are on the mat, it is time to train and time to work.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/413900.html

 

[Adept]

Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?

It was artificial in the first place. A good fighter can be an amoral, despotic and evil person.

 

[Carol]

Why has the relationship between learning fighting skills and spirituality been so compromised?

It was artificial in the first place. A good fighter can be an amoral, despotic and evil person.

I agree. Martial Arts are not about fighting. They are about health.

Martial Artists train because they care about protecting and defending health...either their own health and/or someone else's health.

To fight someone without defending one's health isn't martial arts, it's a criminal assault. Or worse.

 

[exile]

All I am saying is, what good is it to anybody to master self-defense and not love and restraint? Teaching self defense without philosophy or ethics is basically churning out streetfighters and thugs (Dont take that too literally, I'm trying to illustrate a point).

Whoa. Wait a minute. Streetfighters and thugs do not, as a rule, learn their skills in a dojo, a dojang or anywhere else. Streetfighters learn their skills on the mean streets where they practice those skills. Someone who gets into extremely violent altercations on a regular basis is shelling out four figures a year for disciplined training at a martial arts school? You consider this a realistic picture?? Surely you realize that this is something out of comic book, right?

So, as you put it, `what good is it to anybody to master self-defense and not love and restraint?' Exactly why do you think that at a few days short of 60 years old I needed the MA I began studying half a decade ago or less to teach me about love and restraint? I started MAs for a very simple reason, the same as many people study it force: so that if I'm violently attacked, I will be the one who gets home in one piece and doesn't take up a hospital bed, as vs., say, my attacker. It's called `self-defense' for a reason. The `good it does' to master self-defense is that you don't get pounded into a bloody pulp by some pathological jerk. Don't you think that that's a good enough reason?

Like stated previously, I say 'Zen' to mean character and ethical training.

Ah... so you lean towards the Humpty-Dumpty school of semantics. Remember?

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

Just wanted to get that little point straight.

Learning martial arts is inherently an act of self-improvement, even if it is just improving your fighting ability? Then why not improve the quality of a student's psyche as well as their ability to punch and kick?

Is learning alpine skiing or chess or rock climbing an act of self-improvement? Well, is it? And if so, is it legitimate for me, as a student's rock-climing instructor, to presume to try to `improve the quality of a student's psyche as well as their ability to [fill in relevant skill here]'. You don't think it would be the teeniest bit arrogant of me to presume that by virtue of my expertise in skill X, I was entitled to experiment in `improvement of the quality' of my student's `psyche'. What the hell kind of nerve are we talking about here, eh??

The Buddha once said, 'Although a good warrior might conquer a thousand men in battle, the greatest and best warrior conquers himself.'

So what?? Plenty of people have said plenty of things. You've reported a fact about Gautama's biography. Exactly why should I allow it to guide my own behavior unless I'm already a Buddhist? Don't you see that you're caught up in a very circular line of reasoning: you're urging us to a certain view of things on the basis of the moral/spiritual authority of someone who happens to advocate that view of thing? This is like my telling you that we should believe such-and-such religious doctrine because the creators of that doctrine tell us it's true. This is, to put mildly, lousy logic!

Self control is a vital aspect of the martial arts, whether it be self-defense karate or sport Judo. I just happen to use a quote from the Buddha to illustrate a point. I AM NOT PROMOTING ANY RELIGION!

Then why did you specifically send an OP to open this thread in which you questioned why dojos do not teach Zen??. You weren't asking why dojos don't teach self-restraint, you were asking why they don't teach Zen.

I am talking about teaching the philosophy as well as the fighting to students who have completed the beginning stages of development.

`THE philosophy'??

Streetfighters are thugs! Martial Artists should be gentlemen!

Ah. So apparently the only MAists are `gentlemen'—the women MAists as well? And to be a gentleman you must be a devotee of Zen...

...and you really believe all this stuff, eh...? :EG:

 

[Andrew Green]

Even in an art like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, which is quite harsh with all its challenge matches and MMA, it takes ten years to get a black belt, and that is only so the teacher can ensure he is entrusting the rank to someone of character and quality.

That is wrong. It takes as long as it takes to get to the skill level, thats it. No worthy instructor would hold a person back for 10 year to see if they are "worthy." BJJ rank is based on how good you are.

My opinion on the matter is quite simple. Most martial arts instructors are entirely unqualified to teach spirituality or ethics. There are far better people to do that, that are trained in a academic environment and held to standards to do that. Being able to do martial arts does not require you to be, or make you into a spiritual leader.

 

[Ceicei]

Often, spirituality is a process of self-discovery and cannot always be taught. However, ethical behavior can be modeled.

 

[Monadnock]

I would reccomend, Freestyler777, that you try and find out what influence, if any, Zen really had on the martial arts. I think you may find it had less than you thought. Try some reading over on koryu.com, look into Confucianism, or Shinto, and then seek out some schools that incorporate that into their training.

Yes, clearly there are the letters to Musashi from a noted Zen master, and other popular writings, but since these are easily accessible, they have become the popular fascination here in the US. I would try and find a legitimate Japanese dojo and see what goes on in there.

Good luck in your search,
Mike

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Becaue 99.99% of instructors are unqualified to teach Zen.

 

[exile]

Becaue 99.99% of instructors are unqualified to teach Zen.

And the reason they aren't is because Zen per se has no necessary relevance to what it is they are qualified to teach, so there is no particular reason why they should become qualified to teach Zen. 99.99...% of alpine skiing racing instructors don't teach Zen either, for precisely the same reason...

 

[crushing]

I've got my hands full with forms, techniques, Korean terminology, etc. without mixing it up with, if not the unnecessary, the very personal pursuit of spirituality.

With that being said, I know my Combat Hapkido teacher wouldn't not have accepted me as a student if he didn't think I was a decent person. He has come right out and told me and the other students that. THAT is what makes me feel more comfortable training in Combat Hapkido with the other students, not whether they are Zen or not.

 

[exile]

I've got my hands full with forms, techniques, Korean terminology, etc. without mixing it up with, if not the unnecessary, the very personal pursuit of spirituality.

OK, CR, pop quiz—what's the Korean for an inner spread block? No peeking!!

With that being said, I know my Combat Hapkido teacher wouldn't not have accepted me as a student if he didn't think I was a decent person. He has come right out and told me and the other students that. THAT is what makes me feel more comfortable training in Combat Hapkido with the other students, not whether they are Zen or not.

Right!— it's very simple. A responsible teacher won't teach structured violence to someone s/he believes likely to be irresponsible in its use. Why bring Zen (or Zoroastrianism, or Rasta, or anything else) into it?

 

[tellner]

I'm going to need to come up with a FAR for martial arts - Frequently Accessed Rants. One of the first will be martial arts and spiritual practices. I'll summarize...

1) Not all martial arts traditions have diddly to do with East or South Asia.

2) Of those that do, not many have anything to do with Buddhism.

3) Of those which have Buddhist connections, not all have connections to Zen or Ch'an.
3a) Karate has little or no historical connection to Ch'an in anything but
the loosest sense.

4) Most teachers are completely unqualified by training or inclination to be roshis.

5) Many of the students of the few that are have no interest whatsoever in adding Ch'an Buddhism to their lives.

 

[Freestyler777]

OK, it seems that only gorillas post on this website. I read all your replies, and it seems that not one of you realize that single, unarmed combat, which is wrestling, is not even practiced anymore on the street. I doubt Karate, or Jiu-jitsu, or Kempo, or TKD, or JKD is very effective against a gun or knife. And don't tell me about disarming techniques, that is fantasy. Martial Artists are by nature weak people who speculate on what works in a real fight, but never actually do it. Believe me, Mr. 280 Crackhead doesn't care if you know all the hot new techniques coming from Brazil, or the ancient techniques of Okinawan Karate, or even if you are a judo champion. There are very few cases of anyone using martial arts to defend themselves, largely because martial arts are mythology. If you don't realize that, I feel sorry for you. You go back to your fantasy kata, and i'll go back to speaking truth and kindness. Without philosophy, martial arts is a strange form of gymnastics.

Bye.

 

[Andrew Green]

Truth and kindness are rather subjective in there meaning. Coming onto a martial arts board and telling everyone they are livingin in fantasy worlds is hardly either.

I don't know what you do or how it works, but there is a lot of stuff that does work, and there are a lot of people that are in it for sport fighting anyways.

Zen as a major part of the martial arts is the myth, not whether or not learning to fight can make you a better fighter. It can, that can be proven.