Why is everyone so crazy about MMA?

[zDom]

Um... I tend to keep my marital arts separate from my martial arts! Sorry I just could not resist that!

I can't really reply to this without saying what I seem always to say! I know a great many well rounded MMA fighters. We all go to judo, juijitsu, Muay Thai, Sambo seminars, many of us do other TMAs as well, Aikido, karate, TKD etc. I know some that do Chinese styles.
The MMA fighters I know are masters, they are masters of MMA.

a) Attending an occasional seminar doesn't make someone an expert or even proficient in that art or aspect of an art.

If it does, I need to update my resume to add in escrima, judo, kickboxing and a few others.

b) Modern MMA only goes back, what, five years or so? Or you could say UFC 1 in 1993 to get 14 years — and you think these guys are MASTERS of MMA?

 

[Andrew Green]

b) Modern MMA only goes back, what, five years or so? Or you could say UFC 1 in 1993 to get 14 years — and you think these guys are MASTERS of MMA?

If by MMA you mean UFC, yes, 14 years. But people where doing it before the UFC. And yes, the modern top fighters are masters of there art.

 

[Tez3]

a) Attending an occasional seminar doesn't make someone an expert or even proficient in that art or aspect of an art.

If it does, I need to update my resume to add in escrima, judo, kickboxing and a few others.

b) Modern MMA only goes back, what, five years or so? Or you could say UFC 1 in 1993 to get 14 years — and you think these guys are MASTERS of MMA?

Modern MMA? We've been doing Vale Tudo a lot longer than that, I've been training in it for 8 years, ny instructor a lot longer than that. The sport itself has been around since at least the 1920's. Why do you think everything began with the UFC?It may be responsible for the current interest but it didn't invent the sport.
Not masters and just doing occasional seminars? I don't think you understand the training schedule of pro MMA fighters.

 

[zDom]

Well, I did specify modern MMA.

But I am genuinely interested in how long these people you refer to as masters have been training in what could be called MMA.

I think it would make a good thread.

Something may have been around since the 1920s — or you could say pankration goes back to ancient Greece.

But I'm talking about individuals practicing something that truly can be called MMA. Frank Shamrock, for example, debuted as a fighter in Pancrase on December 16, 1994. Is he one of the "masters?"

Not being smart assed or sarcastic: I am looking to get educated.

As for Vale Tudo claims, if you are talking about the Gracies then that is BJJ, a precursor to MMA, IMO — if your opinion differs, explain.

 

[zDom]

Not masters and just doing occasional seminars? I don't think you understand the training schedule of pro MMA fighters.

I think I understand that these guys train hard and on a regular basis, Tez.

What I'm saying is, however, that if they have no experience in Muay Thai, for example, and go to a weekend seminar to learn something about it and then take that back to the gym and train it — regulary and hard — it STILL doesn't make them an expert in Muay Thai.

 

[Tez3]

Well, I did specify modern MMA.

But I am genuinely interested in how long these people you refer to as masters have been training in what could be called MMA.

I think it would make a good thread.

Something may have been around since the 1920s — or you could say pankration goes back to ancient Greece.

But I'm talking about individuals practicing something that truly can be called MMA. Frank Shamrock, for example, debuted as a fighter in Pancrase on December 16, 1994. Is he one of the "masters?"

Not being smart assed or sarcastic: I am looking to get educated.

As for Vale Tudo claims, if you are talking about the Gracies then that is BJJ, a precursor to MMA, IMO — your opinion differs, explain.

A Master and a good friend http://www.mat-magazine.com/mat/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=951&Itemid=20

I think what you see as MMA ie the UFC and what we see as MMA differs and I'm not sure a written explanation would satisfy you. You see MMA as still separate TMA's being used to fight whereas we over here see it as a sport in it's own right and train that way. NHB fighting has been around a very long time, my father remembers NHB fights in Glasgow, Scotland in the 1920's and 30's. Vicious fights they were too. Bareknuckle fights with takedowns and wrestling have also been around in this country for a very long time.
Jujitsu has been in the UK since 1892 when Takashima Shidachi, a bank clerk with the Bank of Japan in London became the first widely known practioner. In many styles of juijitsu there are strikes and kicks as well as the better known moves.That could be be classed as early MMA! Certainly my instructor learned juijitsu with strikes and kicks and he's been doing it 30 years now.

The UFC may have sanitised MMA (though not enough for a lot of people) but the idea of a fighting style with strikes, kicks takedowns and grappling is not new.
You only know of the fighters in the UFC and they are mostly Americans, I think you may know little about the UK and European fighters who are very much masters of their sport. The Russians are very much a force to be reckoned with and they have been doing sambo since at least the beginning of the 20th century, in pure sambo there are strikes too. You can't say they aren't masters of their sport either.

I don't think we will agree on this as we see MMA as different things.

 

[exile]

I'm not english, I'm a canuck. I hear what you're saying though. I was just talking about goin' to the matches, getting some popcorn and a beer and watching the show.

Sorry about the mixup, Em... I think I realized you were a Canadian too but was thinking of the similarities between your point of view and Tez' (who's said the same thing in various threads) and then got your nationalities mixed up as well... typical mindo for me...

I think that what you say is the right way to look at it—good clean fun! :EG: But for a lot of people in this neck of the woods, it's taken on a huge significance as kind of a refutation of the TMAs, which are now, for some reason, supposed to have this big burden of proof on them that they're worth doing. If more people viewed them as basically a good show, with a lot of expertise on their own turf, different from karate's or Wing Chun's turf, I think people would have a much better time and certainly might get along a lot better...

 

[Tez3]

I think I understand that these guys train hard and on a regular basis, Tez.

What I'm saying is, however, that if they have no experience in Muay Thai, for example, and go to a weekend seminar to learn something about it and then take that back to the gym and train it — regulary and hard — it STILL doesn't make them an expert in Muay Thai.

One of the fighters from my club David Smyth has been training MMA since he was 13, he's 19 now and a very up and coming professional fighter, he fights for another British title tonight. His Muay Thai is good, not weekend seminar good but trained by the Thai's good. He is sponsored by Fairtex and goes to train with their fighters in Bangkok, not your holiday type thing but hard training with the top coaches.He's also invited to train at the Bangkok fight club. Thailands where we do our Muay Thai, Bisping and most British fighters go across, they also go to Brazil to seek out the best.

When I say pro fighters I mean pro, they train eat and sleep MMA everyday. David trains with Ian Freeman and Leigh Remedious 2 UFC vets, we have a top Brazilian BJJ coach Marcos Silva. We have boxing coaches and some of the most professional trainers you could imagine.The up and coming fighters are well rounded and well trained and they really do know their game.Seminars are given by Olympians such as Neil Adams (Judo)etc.
Amateurs like me also go to Thailand btw and anyone who wants to come with us is very welcome! It's Fairtex Bangkok, nothing fancy just loads of hard work lol!

 

[Adept]

What I am saying is, does everyone need to abandon their TMA and just do MMA?

Before we get too carried away, we need to define both MMA and TMA, and establish the differences.

For example, if I was doing TKD but incorporating takedowns, submissions and grappling, is it still traditional Taekwondo?

it is better to know one thing and do it well, than to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

Why would being well rounded (a jack of all trades) mean a general lack of skill (master of none)?

But I am genuinely interested in how long these people you refer to as masters have been training in what could be called MMA.

What difference would it make? MMA is one of those martial arts where rank and duration of training are irrelevant. All that matters is skill and ability. If some phenomenally gifted athlete walked into a MMA gym, he could become a 'master' in six months or less!

Of course, in this context the word 'master' is simply used to denote someone who is really, really good at what they do.

 

[Tez3]

Very good points from Adept. Whats just occurred to me is that it's the lack of what you like to call lineage in MMA that's worrying you! Myself and most non Americans have been quite mystified about this mysterious thing ( me, until Exile explained it to me, that is). All this tracing it back to so and so at such a time, whose teachers was so and so auntie's cousin's brother!

 

[zDom]

I believe it all boils down to different definitions of the term "mastery."

No matter how skilled someone is after six years, by my definition they aren't a master yet — just an expert.

Look at that same person after another 15 to 20 years of them training, and you should see a difference, a deeper understanding and higher level of proficiency, just like in any trade.

There should be growth over the years, and that growth and added depth is, IMO, what makes someone a master of their art, trade or fighting system.

 

[Adept]

No matter how skilled someone is after six years, by my definition they aren't a master yet — just an expert.

You're right, it does come down to different definitions. To me, an expert is synonymous with a master.

Look at that same person after another 15 to 20 years of them training, and you should see a difference, a deeper understanding and higher level of proficiency, just like in any trade.

I disagree with this. It shouldn't take 25 years for someone to reach their peak, in terms of understanding or proficiency. It will vary from person to person, as some people are more gifted than others, but I wouldn't think more than four years of dedicated training would be required for the average person.

To my mind the problem (if it can be called a problem) comes from traditional styles that I view as cluttered with extra 'junk' techniques and kata/patterns which must all be memorised and perfected before students of that art can be recognised as a master.

There should be growth over the years, and that growth and added depth is, IMO, what makes someone a master of their art, trade or fighting system.

Yay! More definitions! How do you define 'growth'? And why should it take more than twenty years to develop fully?

 

[zDom]

I disagree with this. It shouldn't take 25 years for someone to reach their peak, in terms of understanding or proficiency. It will vary from person to person, as some people are more gifted than others, but I wouldn't think more than four years of dedicated training would be required for the average person.

I would say if you asked people who have trained with me over the years, most if not all would describe me as being "more gifted than others."

Required for what? To learn everything you need to know about martial arts?

Interesting.

To my mind the problem (if it can be called a problem) comes from traditional styles that I view as cluttered with extra 'junk' techniques and kata/patterns which must all be memorised and perfected before students of that art can be recognised as a master.

Ah yes: the "classical mess" that Bruce talked about, eh?

Well that isn't what I'm talking about. I am talking about becoming more and more proficient with the techniques you already know. Or do you think that a person can simply learn a technique and then that is the end — they've got it down and need not worry about it any more?

Yay! More definitions! How do you define 'growth'? And why should it take more than twenty years to develop fully?

Growth is something that continues to happen. It doesn't stop at four years or twenty.

I know from experience that while I was pretty damn good after two years of training, I was better after four; better yet after 10; and even better after 15.

And it wasn't about adding to the quantity of techniques; it was about adding to the quality and a deeper understanding of the art — a better understanding of the whens and whys of using techniques.

If this hasn't been your experience, two questions come to mind:

How long have you been training?

and, if longer than four years,

How is it that you HAVEN'T noticed "growth" in your abilities?

If I was in your shoes and did not see any improvement after the first four years, I would be concerned something was wrong with me or my training.

But then, your mileage may vary

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I find MMA to be getting boring to watch. This makes me want to get into it at a beginner level and get some hardcore coaching and training. It's like hockey to me. I don't want to watch it anymore, I wanna play. I can't really criticise or have much of an opinion based on watching it. Either way, training is training, fitness is fitness.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

It shouldn't take 25 years for someone to reach their peak, in terms of understanding or proficiency. It will vary from person to person, as some people are more gifted than others, but I wouldn't think more than four years of dedicated training would be required for the average person.

Four years to 'peak'? Maybe I thought that after four years of training.... Four years is just barely getting to the point of being good enough to really start learning.

It takes a lifetime to peak. After 50 years, there's still something new to learn. A new insight, a flaw to correct.

One goal of training is to never peak. To keep training, growing and learning for as long as we can move, think and breathe.

 

[Andrew Green]

Four years to 'peak'? Maybe I thought that after four years of training.... Four years is just barely getting to the point of being good enough to really start learning.

It takes a lifetime to peak. After 50 years, there's still something new to learn. A new insight, a flaw to correct.

One goal of training is to never peak. To keep training, growing and learning for as long as we can move, think and breathe.

People peak, 4 years might be short, but 50 is way too long.

Most people start working full time around 20. Are the smartest, fastest, most efficient people in your work place in there 70's? Probably not. Are the top Athletes in there 70's? Definately not, and Martial arts is a physical activity.

You might be learning new things all the way through, but you are also always forgetting old things, and your body looses its ability to do things.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

We do tend to get old eventually...

 

[Tez3]

We do tend to get old eventually...

Not me! :whip1:

Remember MMA fighters are competitors and tend on the whole to be young apart from Skip Hall of course, he will still be fighting when he's 90.

They of course will still be martial artists when they are old.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

There's something to be said for old man meanness.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

People peak, 4 years might be short, but 50 is way too long.

Most people start working full time around 20. Are the smartest, fastest, most efficient people in your work place in there 70's? Probably not. Are the top Athletes in there 70's? Definately not, and Martial arts is a physical activity.

You might be learning new things all the way through, but you are also always forgetting old things, and your body looses its ability to do things.

Unsurprisingly, my Green friend, I disagree.

One of the glorious things about martial training is you do it, quite literally, until your last day. A 70 year old martial artist may not be able to do a spinning jump kick anymore (though I do know one who can put me in an arm bar any time he likes whether I want him to or not), but in terms of grace, understanding and personal energy he'll be miles beyond anything my smart-*** 35 year old body can handle.

You sound like you've trained long enough to know that we all experience plateus that sometimes last years, but there's always another step waiting just one rep away....