Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

[Gerry Seymour]

And that ambiguity on the meaning of the black belt is part of what enables bullshido in the eastern arts. I think the lack of belts or other insignia helps keep "dim mak" and "no touch knockouts" out of boxing and wrestling. Ultimately, I think the spectator sport aspect of these arts play the largest role, but the lack of belts doesn't hurt either.

I don't think we can blame any of that on the difference in usage between groups. The problem is that BB was arbitrarily chosen as a cutoff for expertise (through marketing and movies, mostly) by much of the public and even many within the MA community. If you had a BB, you were an "expert". And not until then.

It's a bit like assuming only someone with white hair or a bald head can have wisdom. It's arbitrary, and the fact that different people turn grey or lose their hair at different times isn't really the issue.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Not mine. Never was, never will be.

One thing I've noticed is that the basis on which people say that the UFC is or isn't the yardstick is... whether or not the art they practice benefits from it.

 

[Flying Crane]

One thing I've noticed is that the basis on which people say that the UFC is or isn't the yardstick is... whether or not the art they practice benefits from it.

For me, it is just lack of interest, plain and simple. Ive never followed it, don’t know nor care who the players are, am only vaguely familiar with a few of the big names, and only to know that they are/were competitors but nothing about their methodologies nor their fight records. UFC is what it is. I am not connected to it, and I’m fine with that. I don’t structure my training based on what is happening in the UFC.

 

[caped crusader]

I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.

I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.

yeah i mean in the UK people were really first introduced to Judo/Jui Jitsu. Most wore a white belt only the instructor/sensei a Black belt.
I think this should be the case even today, of course kids will want to mark their standards by a coloured belt. I understand this in a way but i feel it´s diluted the arts effectivness (as you wrote standards in different dojos).

 

[caped crusader]

I also have an old book by Henry(Henri) plee i think.. a French man who first trained in France Shotokan and he speaks about it.

 

[Hanzou]

One thing I've noticed is that the basis on which people say that the UFC is or isn't the yardstick is... whether or not the art they practice benefits from it.

I think it's important to note what the UFC actually was and what it actually did to martial arts. The UFC was essentially an advertisement for Gracie Jiujitsu. The Gracies had been struggling for years to popularize their art, and its effectiveness, and the first UFCs were the perfect venue to do exactly that.

Whether people like it or, the first UFC was a permanent paradigm shift in martial arts. There was no longer any guesswork on what was effective and what was BS. If your art was legit, it should be able to put up at least a good showing in the octagon, and that was a very fair argument to make during the early years. MMA now is it's own beast, not really made up of individual styles trying to see what can come out on top, but effective techniques from many styles blended up into an efficient fighting form. However, despite that, the core MAs that were successful in the first UFCs are still present in the repertoire of modern fighters.

Martial Arts as a whole are better now than they were before the UFC. That's simply the truth.

 

[caped crusader]

shame it´s only in French. His book i have is in English. from the early 60s

The Book i have is @ 3:50 it´s called KARATE, Beginner to Black belt 1967 copy

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yeah i mean in the UK people were really first introduced to Judo/Jui Jitsu. Most wore a white belt only the instructor/sensei a Black belt.
I think this should be the case even today, of course kids will want to mark their standards by a coloured belt. I understand this in a way but i feel it´s diluted the arts effectivness (as you wrote standards in different dojos).

That was the approach early on in Kodokan, as I understand it. BB meant they had covered the basics, or something to that effect. Kano later added more ranks (and colors to go with them).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

shame it´s only in French. His book i have is in English. from the early 60s

The Book i have is @ 3:50 it´s called KARATE, Beginner to Black belt 1967 copy

I watched the first few minutes. Seems to be mostly his journey in MA. I might go back and finish watching later, see how much history is discussed, since I know little of the background of JMA in Europe.

 

[caped crusader]

That was the approach early on in Kodokan, as I understand it. BB meant they had covered the basics, or something to that effect. Kano later added more ranks (and colors to go with them).

yes it was Kano who as an educator started the coloured belts. before this it was certificates. Even Escrima..etc has belts now

 

[caped crusader]

I watched the first few minutes. Seems to be mostly his journey in MA. I might go back and finish watching later, see how much history is discussed, since I know little of the background of JMA in Europe.

The Book is great not sure if still in print.
HD Plee was a
5th Dan Karate (shotokan)
4th Dan Judo
2nd Dan Aikido
ISBN 0-572 -00086-3

 

[lklawson]

That was the approach early on in Kodokan, as I understand it. BB meant they had covered the basics, or something to that effect. Kano later added more ranks (and colors to go with them).

Here's an article:

The Judo Rank System - Belts | Judo Info

Achievement in Judo is recognized by a series of ranks. The student ranks are called kyu and are usually differentiated by colored belts (obi). Different colors

judoinfo.com

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[isshinryuronin]

At some point any martial art that becomes hugely financially successful will become more McDojo like.

Warning: This post has shocking content midway thru. Do not read if prone to brain explosion.

Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), punisher73 has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."

"Hugely financially successful," though is dependent on volume. Tasted good, satisfying, not too healthy, nor the best quality. Fast. Not much work to get it. No culinary creativity or expertise to make it. These exact same words can be applied to the McDojo. It's not a matter of style, combat effectiveness, colored belts or anything else other than appealing to the masses. A product aimed at attracting the biggest client base possible and meeting the biggest demand - volume. This leads to the McDojo - a simplified model with popular appeal.

Now, heavy contact, very strict standard of expectations, esoteric content, and/or very hard dedicated, often repetitive (boring) work do NOT lead to a high volume of participants. This is why the Western arts mentioned in the 6 year old OP are not subject to the McDojo syndrome. They don't appeal to a wide range of the public's interest. TMA's that do not cater to the masses are also in no danger of catching "Mc-itis."

OK, ready for a shocking statement? WESTERN KARATE WAS BORN IN A McDOJO. As we all know, the art was brought to the USA by Marines and other military based in Okinawa/Japan post Korean War. Re-read the 1st sentence of the previous paragraph.........Sounds like the way they taught over there, right? So how could they have a high volume of students and become a McDojo?

It was a unique situation where there just happen to be a VERY large market of people who LIKED banging, strict discipline, hard dedicated work - US Marines. As I proposed, a large market volume can lead to the McDojo Syndrome. What the karate masters gave the military was an easy to learn, simplified menu, quick (they were typically there 1.5-2yrs), satisfying to them physically (muy macho) and intellectually (they had no concept of the "real" karate) and were happy with the simple basics. This last sentence contains many of the same words used earlier here to describe McDonald's. The native students were often taught differently as they had years to devote and a different mind set,

The result of those early McDojo "graduates" was that the karate they brought back was the McDonald's version, and not the Lawry's Steakhouse version. But it was still challenging enough that the early market in the USA was limited as most of us were civilians and few were drawn to the demands of the early karate schools. As popularity grew here, our own version of the McDojo evolved with a certain loss of quality in favor of mass volume.

Well, it looks like I got a little carried away, again, running over the 2 or 3 paragraphs I figured on as more and more things dawned on me.

 

[Hanzou]

Warning: This post has shocking content midway thru. Do not read if prone to brain explosion.

Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), punisher73 has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."

"Hugely financially successful," though is dependent on volume. Tasted good, satisfying, not too healthy, nor the best quality. Fast. Not much work to get it. No culinary creativity or expertise to make it. These exact same words can be applied to the McDojo. It's not a matter of style, combat effectiveness, colored belts or anything else other than appealing to the masses. A product aimed at attracting the biggest client base possible and meeting the biggest demand - volume. This leads to the McDojo - a simplified model with popular appeal.

Now, heavy contact, very strict standard of expectations, esoteric content, and/or very hard dedicated, often repetitive (boring) work do NOT lead to a high volume of participants. This is why the Western arts mentioned in the 6 year old OP are not subject to the McDojo syndrome. They don't appeal to a wide range of the public's interest. TMA's that do not cater to the masses are also in no danger of catching "Mc-itis."

OK, ready for a shocking statement? WESTERN KARATE WAS BORN IN A McDOJO. As we all know, the art was brought to the USA by Marines and other military based in Okinawa/Japan post Korean War. Re-read the 1st sentence of the previous paragraph.........Sounds like the way they taught over there, right? So how could they have a high volume of students and become a McDojo?

It was a unique situation where there just happen to be a VERY large market of people who LIKED banging, strict discipline, hard dedicated work - US Marines. As I proposed, a large market volume can lead to the McDojo Syndrome. What the karate masters gave the military was an easy to learn, simplified menu, quick (they were typically there 1.5-2yrs), satisfying to them physically (muy macho) and intellectually (they had no concept of the "real" karate) and were happy with the simple basics. This last sentence contains many of the same words used earlier here to describe McDonald's. The native students were often taught differently as they had years to devote and a different mind set,

The result of those early McDojo "graduates" was that the karate they brought back was the McDonald's version, and not the Lawry's Steakhouse version. But it was still challenging enough that the early market in the USA was limited as most of us were civilians and few were drawn to the demands of the early karate schools. As popularity grew here, our own version of the McDojo evolved with a certain loss of quality in favor of mass volume.

Well, it looks like I got a little carried away, again, running over the 2 or 3 paragraphs I figured on as more and more things dawned on me.

Yeah, BJJ has definitely entered its McDojo phase. However, unlike Karate and other MAs, I think BJJ benefits from it's closeness with MMA, and its inherent NHB heritage. It's almost like an obligation for BJJ to remain in a realm where it is a practical system of fighting and self defense. When the Berimbolo gained prominence in BJJ competition for example, people immediately questioned if that technique could work in a MMA format. In addition, high end BJJ competitors like Gordon Ryan and Garry Tonnon are expected to eventually enter MMA and perform relatively well.

As I've said many times, MMA keeps BJJ honest, and it drives competitive BJJ to remain in the realm of reality, without it going too far out to pasture. So while I will again say that BJJ is definitely entering its McDojo phase, clearly not all McDojos are created equal. Of course, time will tell if this situation persists, because there are cases of people obtaining BJJ black belts a lot faster and a lot less skilled than they used to.

 

[caped crusader]

people obtaining BJJ black belts a lot faster and a lot less skilled than they used to.

yup---100% everyone seems to be connected to the well known Families in BJJ a lot of Blue belts teaching too.

 

[caped crusader]

man this is sad...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yup---100% everyone seems to be connected to the well known Families in BJJ a lot of Blue belts teaching too.

The blue belts teaching isn't anything new, I think. Others with more knowledge can correct if what I think I remember isn't accurate, but to spread the art, folks were encouraged to start teaching pretty early. I know at least one group of Gracies was still promoting "study groups" a few years ago - might still be. Those would be led by someone I think below purple.

 

[caped crusader]

The blue belts teaching isn't anything new, I think. Others with more knowledge can correct if what I think I remember isn't accurate, but to spread the art, folks were encouraged to start teaching pretty early. I know at least one group of Gracies was still promoting "study groups" a few years ago - might still be. Those would be led by someone I think below purple.

yeah not saying all are bad but hey...the Gracies can give each other a Red belt...

 

[lklawson]

Warning: This post has shocking content midway thru. Do not read if prone to brain explosion.

Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), punisher73 has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."

"Hugely financially successful," though is dependent on volume. Tasted good, satisfying, not too healthy, nor the best quality. Fast. Not much work to get it. No culinary creativity or expertise to make it. These exact same words can be applied to the McDojo. It's not a matter of style, combat effectiveness, colored belts or anything else other than appealing to the masses. A product aimed at attracting the biggest client base possible and meeting the biggest demand - volume. This leads to the McDojo - a simplified model with popular appeal.

The biggest watch word for McDonald's was "standardized." A McDonald's cheeseburger made in LA looks and tastes exactly the same as a McDonalds cheeseburger in NY. The menu is exactly the same in Wisconsin as it is in Florida. You know exactly what you're going to get anywhere you go. McDonald's is single-handedly responsible for the Idaho potato industry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Warning: This post has shocking content midway thru. Do not read if prone to brain explosion.

Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), punisher73 has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."

"Hugely financially successful," though is dependent on volume. Tasted good, satisfying, not too healthy, nor the best quality. Fast. Not much work to get it. No culinary creativity or expertise to make it. These exact same words can be applied to the McDojo. It's not a matter of style, combat effectiveness, colored belts or anything else other than appealing to the masses. A product aimed at attracting the biggest client base possible and meeting the biggest demand - volume. This leads to the McDojo - a simplified model with popular appeal.

Now, heavy contact, very strict standard of expectations, esoteric content, and/or very hard dedicated, often repetitive (boring) work do NOT lead to a high volume of participants. This is why the Western arts mentioned in the 6 year old OP are not subject to the McDojo syndrome. They don't appeal to a wide range of the public's interest. TMA's that do not cater to the masses are also in no danger of catching "Mc-itis."

OK, ready for a shocking statement? WESTERN KARATE WAS BORN IN A McDOJO. As we all know, the art was brought to the USA by Marines and other military based in Okinawa/Japan post Korean War. Re-read the 1st sentence of the previous paragraph.........Sounds like the way they taught over there, right? So how could they have a high volume of students and become a McDojo?

It was a unique situation where there just happen to be a VERY large market of people who LIKED banging, strict discipline, hard dedicated work - US Marines. As I proposed, a large market volume can lead to the McDojo Syndrome. What the karate masters gave the military was an easy to learn, simplified menu, quick (they were typically there 1.5-2yrs), satisfying to them physically (muy macho) and intellectually (they had no concept of the "real" karate) and were happy with the simple basics. This last sentence contains many of the same words used earlier here to describe McDonald's. The native students were often taught differently as they had years to devote and a different mind set,

The result of those early McDojo "graduates" was that the karate they brought back was the McDonald's version, and not the Lawry's Steakhouse version. But it was still challenging enough that the early market in the USA was limited as most of us were civilians and few were drawn to the demands of the early karate schools. As popularity grew here, our own version of the McDojo evolved with a certain loss of quality in favor of mass volume.

Well, it looks like I got a little carried away, again, running over the 2 or 3 paragraphs I figured on as more and more things dawned on me.

Everything about that post was interesting and informative. My only comment is you should aim higher than a Lawrys steakhouse. You can do better.

The biggest watch word for McDonald's was "standardized." A McDonald's cheeseburger made in LA looks and tastes exactly the same as a McDonalds cheeseburger in NY. The menu is exactly the same in Wisconsin as it is in Florida. You know exactly what you're going to get anywhere you go. McDonald's is single-handedly responsible for the Idaho potato industry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Anyone else work at McDs as their first job? I remember when we had to actually flip the burgers.

fun fact, when I worked at the McDs at the ferry terminal in the late 80s, we served fish n chips and clam chowder. So they weren’t completely standardized.