Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

lklawson

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I don't think we can blame any of that on the difference in usage between groups. The problem is that BB was arbitrarily chosen as a cutoff for expertise (through marketing and movies, mostly) by much of the public and even many within the MA community. If you had a BB, you were an "expert". And not until then.
It was the common understanding before that. In Black Belt Magazine, 1961, Vol. 1, No. 1, in the front-page Editorial, they write:

"Black Belt - We chose this name for our magazine for two reasons. First, only in the Oriental self- defense arts and sports is the black belt worn as part of the uniform. And then it is worn only by an individual who has achieved the rank of sho-dan, or "first degree."
Second, it has a deep significance for all enthusiasts of Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Kendo. This is because the black belt denotes the expert. The wearer of the black belt is recognized as a qualified instructor. Until one wears the black belt he is not satisfied with his accomplishment."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

caped crusader

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The biggest watch word for McDonald's was "standardized." A McDonald's cheeseburger made in LA looks and tastes exactly the same as a McDonalds cheeseburger in NY. The menu is exactly the same in Wisconsin as it is in Florida. You know exactly what you're going to get anywhere you go. McDonald's is single-handedly responsible for the Idaho potato industry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Hmmm.....might get a double whopper later but that織s Burger King
 

lklawson

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fun fact, when I worked at the McDs at the ferry terminal in the late 80s, we served fish n chips and clam chowder. So they werent completely standardized. :)
Ray Kroc, bought Mccy D's from the McDonald brothers, was positively anal about standardization. He'd make spot checks around the country to ensure that franchise holders were adhering to McDonalds menu and cooking standards.

Eventually, they realized that if they localized the menu, they could sometimes make more money (the Filet-o-Fish came from catering to Catholics, iirc) but, even to this day they still have the "Hamburger University" so that they can train people to do things "The McDonald's Way" ...standardization.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Steve

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Ray Kroc, bought Mccy D's from the McDonald brothers, was positively anal about standardization. He'd make spot checks around the country to ensure that franchise holders were adhering to McDonalds menu and cooking standards.

Eventually, they realized that if they localized the menu, they could sometimes make more money (the Filet-o-Fish came from catering to Catholics, iirc) but, even to this day they still have the "Hamburger University" so that they can train people to do things "The McDonald's Way" ...standardization.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The filet-o-fish was the first thing I learned to make.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It was the common understanding before that. In Black Belt Magazine, 1961, Vol. 1, No. 1, in the front-page Editorial, they write:

"Black Belt - We chose this name for our magazine for two reasons. First, only in the Oriental self- defense arts and sports is the black belt worn as part of the uniform. And then it is worn only by an individual who has achieved the rank of sho-dan, or "first degree."
Second, it has a deep significance for all enthusiasts of Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Kendo. This is because the black belt denotes the expert. The wearer of the black belt is recognized as a qualified instructor. Until one wears the black belt he is not satisfied with his accomplishment."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
That would be well into the period I'm talking about (which, admittedly, was pretty broad). I'm including the post-WWII GI's returning with their shodan. My recollection of the history is hazy, but wasn't that significant by the mid-50's?
 

Buka

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Warning: This post has shocking content midway thru. Do not read if prone to brain explosion.

Out of 9 pages of posts (some interesting), punisher73 has, IMO, come up with the definitive point to the OP topic. The "Mc" is derived from mega chain McDonald's, which from its very inception was based on simple basic food (in quality and menu) for the masses that desired "quick and simple."

"Hugely financially successful," though is dependent on volume. Tasted good, satisfying, not too healthy, nor the best quality. Fast. Not much work to get it. No culinary creativity or expertise to make it. These exact same words can be applied to the McDojo. It's not a matter of style, combat effectiveness, colored belts or anything else other than appealing to the masses. A product aimed at attracting the biggest client base possible and meeting the biggest demand - volume. This leads to the McDojo - a simplified model with popular appeal.

Now, heavy contact, very strict standard of expectations, esoteric content, and/or very hard dedicated, often repetitive (boring) work do NOT lead to a high volume of participants. This is why the Western arts mentioned in the 6 year old OP are not subject to the McDojo syndrome. They don't appeal to a wide range of the public's interest. TMA's that do not cater to the masses are also in no danger of catching "Mc-itis."

OK, ready for a shocking statement? WESTERN KARATE WAS BORN IN A McDOJO. As we all know, the art was brought to the USA by Marines and other military based in Okinawa/Japan post Korean War. Re-read the 1st sentence of the previous paragraph.........Sounds like the way they taught over there, right? So how could they have a high volume of students and become a McDojo?

It was a unique situation where there just happen to be a VERY large market of people who LIKED banging, strict discipline, hard dedicated work - US Marines. As I proposed, a large market volume can lead to the McDojo Syndrome. What the karate masters gave the military was an easy to learn, simplified menu, quick (they were typically there 1.5-2yrs), satisfying to them physically (muy macho) and intellectually (they had no concept of the "real" karate) and were happy with the simple basics. This last sentence contains many of the same words used earlier here to describe McDonald's. The native students were often taught differently as they had years to devote and a different mind set,

The result of those early McDojo "graduates" was that the karate they brought back was the McDonald's version, and not the Lawry's Steakhouse version. But it was still challenging enough that the early market in the USA was limited as most of us were civilians and few were drawn to the demands of the early karate schools. As popularity grew here, our own version of the McDojo evolved with a certain loss of quality in favor of mass volume.

Well, it looks like I got a little carried away, again, running over the 2 or 3 paragraphs I figured on as more and more things dawned on me.
Pretty awesome post.
 

geezer

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Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.
Have you ever actually tried that? Don't knock it till you've tried it. o_O :p

....OK, I know the conversation has moved way beyond this comment from a few pages back, but I was just having fun imagining this technique being demonstrated on YouTube. Really worthy of Ameri-do-te! Or what most of the kids I grew up with practiced on the playground.
 
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Buka

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Everything about that post was interesting and informative. My only comment is you should aim higher than a Lawrys steakhouse. You can do better. :)

Anyone else work at McDs as their first job? I remember when we had to actually flip the burgers.

fun fact, when I worked at the McDs at the ferry terminal in the late 80s, we served fish n chips and clam chowder. So they werent completely standardized. :)
It was the second place I worked. For one day.

They had roast beef there back then.
 

Dirty Dog

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Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.
I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...
 

Steve

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It was the second place I worked. For one day.

They had roast beef there back then.
I loved that job. Not as fun at the first store I worked at, which was on "The Ave" in Seattle. At the time, that place was pretty rough. Lots of homeless teens, drugs, etc going on in that area. Fortunately, a lot of the worst ruffians were my friends, but I was frequently asked to kick people out, break up fights, etc...

The second store I worked at was great... down on University Avenue, not too far away, but on the good side of Greek row. A lot of really pretty, frisky sorority girls going through the drive thru all the time. They would shamelessly objectify me, but at 16, I didn't mind at all.

In my senior year in high school, my family moved to Bainbridge Island. I was already enrolled at Garfield in Seattle, so we just sort of didn't tell them that we had moved. I would take the ferry across into Seattle, go to school (well, really, I would skip most days and hang out with my fellow delinquents), then work evenings at the Coleman Dock store literally in the ferry terminal and then just walk onto the ferry after work.

Those were pretty good times. After I graduated, I got a job as a dishwasher at a place called the Streamliner Diner on the Island. The other dishwasher was the drummer for Nirvana at the time, before they were really big. His name was Chad, and he and I got pretty messed up after work on many occasions.

My time on Bainbridge was relatively brief... was there for just over a year. But man, that was the most irresponsible year of my life. :)
 

Gerry Seymour

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Have you ever actually tried that? Don't knock it till you've tried it. o_O :p

....OK, I know the conversation has moved way beyond this comment from a few pages back, but I was just having fun imagining this technique being demonstrated on YouTube. Really worthy of Ameri-do-te! Or what most of the kids I grew up with practiced on the playground.
Pretty sure if I had @Hanzou down, hed be able to use a nipple twister to get out.
 

Hanzou

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I'm willing to bet you can, sometimes. Wouldn't necessarily be the "go to" move, but sometimes...

Never. Even if someone is bare-chested it's a really dumb thing to do. It's about as dumb as that scene in Enter the Dragon where the guy bites Bolo's calf in order to get out of an arm bar.

I suppose if you're screwed and are desperately trying to escape and you've run out of options you can try it and roll the dice (like biting someone's leg). However, 99.9% of the time it's going to get you nowhere. In fact, moving your arms around unprotected in that position is exactly what a grappler wants you to do.

It's not considered a dominant position for nothing....
 

Hanzou

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Have you ever actually tried that? Don't knock it till you've tried it. o_O :p

No, because it's a surefire way to make your situation on bottom far worse. Far better to expend that effort and energy to attempt to create space in order to escape.
....OK, I know the conversation has moved way beyond this comment from a few pages back, but I was just having fun imagining this technique being demonstrated on YouTube. Really worthy of Ameri-do-te! Or what most of the kids I grew up with practiced on the playground.

Hence why I mentioned it. People think "Yeah, I could totally bite someone's leg or pinch someone's nipple and get out of a bad grappling position!" The reality is that BJJ and submission grappling has complex escapes because it's really not easy getting out of dominant positions. Especially if you're dealing with a bigger/stronger opponent.
 
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