would you be more interested in western MA if...

[shihansmurf]

Unless you consider anything west of China to be "western", Krav Maga is not western, it is from Isreal, which is part of the middle east...

Perhaps "Non-Asian" then?

Personally, I tend to think of East Asian arts in this context like TKD, Karate, the various CMAs and such in contrast to western arts like like boxing, greco-roman wrestling, and savate. I think that there are several more modern arts that have developed here in America and other westernized countries that, inspite of Asian origins, are pure American martial arts such as American kenpo and JKD. I happen to think this of Krav Maga as well. I am fully aware of where Isreal is, I just should have explaned my point better.

Out of curiosity, do you consider BJJ to be a wester martial art? I am not looking to get into a semantic debate I am interested in what point an art that branches off can be considered something actually different.

Mark

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not quite getting the context you're striving towards, Allen.

All I'm attempting to get across is that the similarities are striking (yeah! MA based pun attack ) when you get down to the physicality of what is going on.

Back then, as now, what works best for a person depends on the person. The stylistic wrangling between the various schools of European 'battle craft' were just as partisan and vitriolic as any modern day "My style is the roxxorz and yours suxx" Net war .

 

[Langenschwert]

So you mean to say that there is not one with huge advantages over the other?

That's what I think Sukerkin is saying. The principles in fighting with edged weapons are identical no matter where you go. The specifics change with the individual weapons, but if you look at say, the stances used in classical kenjutsu ryuha and those of European longsword (either German or Italian), they're very similar. Those that study German longsword and those that study Classical Japanese swordsmanship will recognize about 80% of what the other guys are doing, the rest being just specifics tied to a particular weapon or situation.

@ Jarrod: There are indeed many folk-wrestling styles in Europe, but there are also two main branches of European medieval battlefield grappling: Ringen (German) and Abrazze (Italian). The are again, very similar to their Japanese counterparts.

@ Harlan: I wouldn't underestimate the value of Scottish MA. MT's own Louie Pastore uses singlestick techniques when sparring with the Dog Brothers, and he gives as good as he gets.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Sukerkin]

Hi Mark, I was hoping you'd happen along to add your hands-on knowledge of the European side of the equation to this one (me only really being able to speak from experience of the JSA perspective) :tup:.

 

[shihansmurf]

I fired that post off while doing a bunch of stuff at once.


Since it is bad form to quote one's own post, and as I realize that as written that the last post comes of snarky and a bit dumb(not to mention that I can't seem to edit at the moment) so please let me try that again..



that line should should read
Perhaps "Non East Asian" then?

I've noticed that we have, in pop culture, along with a certain amount of bleed over into general martial arts subculture created this interesting divide between East/West as it pertains to certain martial art practices. This seems, in my experience, cause some arts to be viewed as western that don't have western origins(within a reasonable period, I understand that if we go back far enough we all go back to one cave man beating the snot out of another one and recording the blessed event in paintings upon cave walls).BJJ, Krav Maga, EPAK, and JKD and are generaly precieved, IME as western martial arts. I wonder what commanalities these systems have that lead to this perception, or as I said, is this just some this something I have noticed and am rambling about on the coolest martial arts forum on the net.

Mark

 

[jarrod]

No. Reasons being:

2. Even with an interest in my Scottish heritage/roots, I don't see any deep value to preserving anything MA related that is listed specifically as 'scottish' or 'celtic', etc. I'm a beginer, with rudimentary knowledge of weapons and fighting, but from the surface...it just seems to me that the revival of interest is symptomatic of romantic and semi-nationalistic forces at play...and the 'value' of any Scottish MA...over-rated.

that's interesting. what, in your mind, constitutes "scottish-ness?" the reason i ask is because when i initially studied my own geneology, i considered ethnicity as a bloodline/racial issue. later though i came to perceive ethnicity as a reflection of the culture one participates in...what language one speaks, religion one practices, sport one plays, & martial arts one practices. tez already addressed the value of scottish MA; i would just point out that there are many asian arts as well which have a nationalistic romanticized side, & perhaps questionable practical value.

Perhaps "Non-Asian" then?

Out of curiosity, do you consider BJJ to be a wester martial art? I am not looking to get into a semantic debate I am interested in what point an art that branches off can be considered something actually different.

Mark

i guess i didn't really define what i meant by WMA when i started this thread. i think if you want to, you can be very particular & call bjj a latin martial art, or a south american martial art, etc...i just think that when you split categories down that much you might as well just be referring to individual arts & not placing them in a group at all. bjj undoubtedly stems from japanese arts, yet was developed in south america using none of the japanese formalities. so i guess you could argue that it is western if you look at it's cultural practice, eastern if you look at it's origins.

but for the purpose of this thread, i guess when i say WMA i am referring to historical european arts.

@ Jarrod: There are indeed many folk-wrestling styles in Europe, but there are also two main branches of European medieval battlefield grappling: Ringen (German) and Abrazze (Italian). The are again, very similar to their Japanese counterparts.

@ Harlan: I wouldn't underestimate the value of Scottish MA. MT's own Louie Pastore uses singlestick techniques when sparring with the Dog Brothers, and he gives as good as he gets.

Best regards,

-Mark

i've only heard of ringen & abrazze, but you're right, i did overlook them. would you agree with me that they didn't survive because they weren't transformed into a sport or perceived to have any real-world value after the advent of firearms?

also, can you link some info on scottish single stick? i'm not very familiar with that, but it sounds interesting.

jf

 

[chinto]

it would be interesting if some one can from the existing actual historical texts put together some of the european systems that existed in say 1500.. at that time the people of europe had unarmed systems and weapons systems for blades and staffs and such that were as well developed and effective as any of the asian systems of today.

I would bet that if you had some one who knew some of the systems of that time and they showed you them .. you might almost mistake them for some modern asian arts such as japanese jujitsu or karate or kungfu ..

 

[harlan]

1. You asked for opinions...if those already studying an art would consider the Western ones. As I stated...mine is from the limited understanding of a beginner already committed to a school/art.

2. As stated, my opinion is based on limited knowledge of what constitutes WMA. As such, you might consider that informative in that what would the outsider 'see' when WMA is introduced to them? What preconceived notions do you have to overcome to educate people? Etc. As you pointed out...I fixated right to 'what would be scottish' or 'swords'. Regardless of whether or not it has any bearing on the 'reality' of WMA...if you want to draw people in...you have to get past their preconceived notions/bias. Just giving you something to work with.

3. As for the comment that asian arts have suffered from nationalistic forces, and have questionable value...is irrelevant to the original question.

What is your goal? Just trying to be helpful.

that's interesting. what, in your mind, constitutes "scottish-ness?" the reason i ask is because when i initially studied my own geneology, i considered ethnicity as a bloodline/racial issue. later though i came to perceive ethnicity as a reflection of the culture one participates in...what language one speaks, religion one practices, sport one plays, & martial arts one practices. tez already addressed the value of scottish MA; i would just point out that there are many asian arts as well which have a nationalistic romanticized side, & perhaps questionable practical value.




i guess i didn't really define what i meant by WMA when i started this thread. i think if you want to, you can be very particular & call bjj a latin martial art, or a south american martial art, etc...i just think that when you split categories down that much you might as well just be referring to individual arts & not placing them in a group at all. bjj undoubtedly stems from japanese arts, yet was developed in south america using none of the japanese formalities. so i guess you could argue that it is western if you look at it's cultural practice, eastern if you look at it's origins.

but for the purpose of this thread, i guess when i say WMA i am referring to historical european arts.



i've only heard of ringen & abrazze, but you're right, i did overlook them. would you agree with me that they didn't survive because they weren't transformed into a sport or perceived to have any real-world value after the advent of firearms?

also, can you link some info on scottish single stick? i'm not very familiar with that, but it sounds interesting.

jf

 

[jarrod]

1. You asked for opinions...if those already studying an art would consider the Western ones. As I stated...mine is from the limited understanding of a beginner already committed to a school/art.

2. As stated, my opinion is based on limited knowledge of what constitutes WMA. As such, you might consider that informative in that what would the outsider 'see' when WMA is introduced to them? What preconceived notions do you have to overcome to educate people? Etc. As you pointed out...I fixated right to 'what would be scottish' or 'swords'. Regardless of whether or not it has any bearing on the 'reality' of WMA...if you want to draw people in...you have to get past their preconceived notions/bias. Just giving you something to work with.

3. As for the comment that asian arts have suffered from nationalistic forces, and have questionable value...is irrelevant to the original question.

What is your goal? Just trying to be helpful.

if you're getting defensive, please don't; your initial post was very informative & i was just broadening the discussion by asking further questions you're opinions are informative as well as appreciated.

my question about what you perceive as scottish wasn't meant to be smug either. coincidentally, i've had an interest in celtic studies for almost as long as i've been in martial arts, & i've recently began studying scottish gaelic. i just happened to have recently read some thought-provoking articles at http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/ . a common question that comes up often in celtic studies is, "what makes a scot a scot?". for the most part, people view scottishness as a matter of either bloodline, or a matter of culture (language, sport, community, etc). i was wondering what you're impression was.

my interest in WMA is fairly recent, & part of the appeal for me is that i have only recently become aware of the many western styles which have just as much practical value as any eastern style. by this i mean effective methods of grappling (catch wrestling, gouren, cornish wrestling), striking (savate), & stick fighting (la canne, bataireacht, jogo do pau). unlike many asian styles, these WMAs are in real danger of dying out in spite of their effectivness, & the idea of helping to preserve these arts is very appealing to me.

as for my comment regarding asian martial arts & nationalism...that was just in reply to your comment.

my goal is pretty broad. i'm just trying to get an interesting discussion going, & so far it's working. i never investigated WMA very closely because my primary interest in martial arts is self-defense, which sword fighting is not very relevent to. i was just wondering if people who train bjj would like to study catch wrestling; or if people who do escrima would be interested in batareacht, etc. of course, you already mentioned your commitment to your school & i can certainly appreciate that.

jf

 

[Nolo_Ferratus]

I'd say no because I wasn't hugely impressed with the examples of WMA sparring that I witnessed at the WMA event that I went to. In the first place they didn't seem like a scientifically minded group of people nor did they seem interested in the opinions of outsiders.

I also asked their instuctors a number of question to try and find out if they had enough experience in observing real injuries to determine how to count blows and concluded their opinions were based on incorrect data.

I also don't agree that their interpretation of Fiore was even that correct.

 

[allenjp]

BJJ is an interesting case because all of the techniques have their origin in Japan, but they have been modified with the Brazilian "vale tudo" concept in mind. And while they don't use the Japanese formalities (I call my Brazilian instructor by his first name) the Brazilians that formed this art insist on using Gi's and a belt ranking system.

All in All I would probably say it is western. The Brazilians made it their own, and brought back into use many techniques that were dropped by the Japanese...