Why does it take so long to get a Black Belt in most systems?

[HM2PAC]

This is a pretty good conversation for a thread that hadn't been touched for 4 years.

Something that may help would be an agreed upon definition of a Black Belt.

I've heard that it is someone who is versed in the basics well enough to begin learning. I've also heard some believe it to be full/complete mastery of the material at hand.

 

[sgtmac_46]

newy wrote:


Yes, but I was only talking about their take-downs. They spent most of their effort on mat work.

Cryozombie wrote:



Then you are left with a really good match-up.



In retrospect my point to bring up the HS wrestling was this:

1. They knew the basics, and executed them in such fashion that counters were many times unproductive. Did they get countered? Of course, but they usually had the upper hand.

2. We new what they were going to do. Everyone knew what they were going to do. We practiced counters, not just for them, but for everyone. In the end, speed kills and oftentimes they were just too fast.

Looking back on these wrestlers, many of them had been on mats since they were 5 or 6. These were the guys who could bend you into something Gumby-esque. I would liken them to BB's that take a long time. But some of their wrestlers started in HS, and with good intensive training became proficient themselves.

Good points.......for example, if you have one guy that has studied reversals, blocks, traps, kicks, punches, etc, etc, etc...a few hundred times apiece, knows each so-so, but has a broad body of knowledge...........and he fights a guy who has LITERALLY practiced the same two or three combinations of punches tens of thousands of times, who knows those two or three combinations INTIMATELY..........it is far from foregone that the guy with the breadth of knowledge will defeat this guy with such depth.........my money's on the guy with two or three combinations of punches, two or three kicks, and two or three takedowns, two or three ground techniques, etc, who can put them together SEEMLESSLY!

 

[celtic_crippler]

Summary: A black belt is supposed to denote that the one wearing it is an expert. One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, sutdy, and effort.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Celtic Crippler said it very well.

Some schools just require more of a student than know how to do a form or "X" number of self defense moves. Some schools require commitment, an in depth knowledge of the forms and techniques than is taught the first day of learning them, some demand a certain mental awareness and maturity that not all require. Some schools require more than someone paying dues and testing fees

 

[newy085]

Which sounds better in theory than in practice......in reality it's why boxers and muay thai fighters win fights.......they practice a half dozen or so techniques to the point of perfection.........or as Bruce Lee said

“I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” - Bruce Lee

While it's good to know a number of techniques in order to teach others to find which techniques work best for them, in practice you will only master a few that work very well for you.

That's not the say that one shouldn't study a wide variety of responses.......but the result is the ability to deal with a BROADER spectrum of situations......not to deal with specific situations better. For example, someone who has studied a broad spectrum of techniques who enters a boxing ring under those conditions is likely to lose to a boxer who has spent the same time studying boxing.

I love that quote. And I agree with you, that a martial artist should never practice ONLY a handful of techniques. I think that the worst thing any martial artist should do is close their mind to anything.

But they should have those handful of techniques that are their bread and butter. That when the chips are down, they can execute mindlessly. I think that at least half of your training should be dedicated to these 'basic' techniques.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Summary: A black belt is supposed to denote that the one wearing it is an expert. One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, study, and effort.

Agree and disagree; first the disagree:

Most styles that I am familiar with do not consider a blackbelt to be expert, merely proficient; proficient in technique and a proficient fighter. One who has "learned how to learn." Using kendo as an example, a blackbelt is considered a beginner. A second degree is someone who is developing a fuller understanding of kendo. Master, or expert is generally not until fourth or fifth dan.

While proficiency does not come over night either, depending upon the number and type of techniques a form has becoming proficient in the basics can take a different amount of time from school to school.

Having said that, I do believe that a blackbelt represents a proficient fighter in that style, which is different from being proficient in techniques and forms. One can be a very proficient kicker or puncher, kicking and punching with the proficiency to break boards, bricks, or whatever, and with perfect form, but still not be able to fight. If you can't fight proficiently, but hold a black belt, then there is no point to learning the forms and techniques, particularly if you quit after you get your black belt, which most students do.

Now, where I agree: to be an expert in anything takes a very lengthy time. If a style holds that blackbelt is an expert, but hands them out in two years, then I would have very serious reservations about either the curriculum, the quality of the instructor, or more than likely, both.

Getting back to my kendo example with regards to where one is considered 'expert' in the style, time in kyu ranks is at least two years, another year to second degree, two years from second to third, three from third to fourth, and four from fourth to fifth. That is eight to twelve years to fourth/fifth dan, plus there are minimum age requirements for higher dan ranks.

And that is for the use of one weapon! So, regarding Crippler's last sentence,

One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, study, and effort.

I agree 200%.

Daniel

 

[zeeberex]

why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

Did you ever stop to think the question you're asking is the wrong one? Belts are over emphasized and with all the "honorary ones out there, it's not a fair measure of ability.

The Way I learned it was, for each technique, sound muscle memory comes after 1000 correct repetitions, and can be further perfected over every five hundred repetitions. So do the math and apply it to the system of your choice. What one does with the higher level stuff after the basics, will obviously depend on the individual.

 

[zeeberex]

Summary: A black belt is supposed to denote that the one wearing it is an expert. One does not become an expert at something over-night. It takes years of practice, sutdy, and effort.

Actually it doesn't, it denotes you have mastered the "basics" to a satisfactory level, and are ready to begin the real journey, 2nd dan and beyond.

 

[newy085]

Actually it doesn't, it denotes you have mastered the "basics" to a satisfactory level, and are ready to begin the real journey, 2nd dan and beyond.

That might be what the belt symbolizes in your style, but that may differ from school to school. That is why I believe that a black belt is only important to the person wearing it, and to a lesser extent important to people within your style. Because they are the ones that understand what it has taken to be able to wear it.

In my school we have a similar view of the black belt but to write off celtic_cripplers views based on your experience is not right.

 

[Glycerine0160]

Personally, I've only been taking JKD for a year. I go about 3 times a week.

I'm only now really starting to do it at home. It's a matter of what you want out of it. Knowing a technique is good, but if you can't perform it fast (and smooth duh) by training it fast, it's useless unless you are fighting someone with no experience.

Also, it's obvious to an extent a larger tool bag is useful, but I have never used any of what I know yet if ever, but I did wrestle in highschool. What I learned from that is, you stick with what you know. I used the same cross face cradle everytime. I won a lot once I got the ropes down. I had a few other moves, and anything beyond that would be situational. But I also did lose a match (when I was kicking this kid's ***) and was like, "**** it let me try something new" and boom he got me in a headlock (which in wrestling means game over)

So it's of my personal belief (even though I have little experience compared to many others)

-keep it simple
-practice them down to a science
-work on speed/conditioning
-overtime, you may expand your "actual" toolbag slowly

(this to me is what a good fighter is determined by (in terms of technique of moves.) Moving up in the ranks just means you can perform multiple moves when recognized too. Example, doing good on a multiple choice test does not actually translate to knowledge)

 

[zeeberex]

That might be what the belt symbolizes in your style, but that may differ from school to school. That is why I believe that a black belt is only important to the person wearing it, and to a lesser extent important to people within your style. Because they are the ones that understand what it has taken to be able to wear it.

In my school we have a similar view of the black belt but to write off celtic_cripplers views based on your experience is not right.

Was not my intent to write him off, just point out my own experience. No ego intended. the way I always heard the journey described was that the belt starts as white, you progress to black belt, and as you train over time and the belt's color degrades through wear, it ultimately becomes white again and end where you begin. Training is a circle.

 

[bostonbomber]

No offense to other systems, but this thread really makes me appreciate TCMA where there are no belt rankings!

 

[celtic_crippler]

Actually it doesn't, it denotes you have mastered the "basics" to a satisfactory level, and are ready to begin the real journey, 2nd dan and beyond.

Depends on your style, buddy.

You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there.

It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Depends on your style, buddy.

You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there

Sadly, there are places that do this, though the average is about two years, with a reasonably sized minority taking three.

It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....

Back in the day, that's how long it generally took in taekwondo as well. As you observed, not so now. I wish that it was that way still; it would weed out the 'I just wanna belt' crowd.

Daniel

 

[celtic_crippler]

Back in the day, that's how long it generally took in taekwondo as well. As you observed, not so now. I wish that it was that way still; it would weed out the 'I just wanna belt' crowd.

Daniel

No doubt, I've told more than one person that if all they want is a "black belt" in under a year, then they should simply order it from Century and be done with it....that way they'd save some money ..and in the end would be just as skilled.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No doubt, I've told more than one person that if all they want is a "black belt" in under a year, then they should simply order it from Century and be done with it....that way they'd save some money ..and in the end would be just as skilled.

Actually, they might be better off; they won't have the false confidence that they can actually defend themselves with what they've 'learned' in their streamlined accelerated McDojo masters club.

Daniel

 

[allenjp]

Depends on your style, buddy.

You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there.

It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....

Yeah, and in BJJ it takes at the very least that long. Most don't get bb until 6 to 8 years in. And beside the time, if you don't show you can seriously compete with other bb's on the mat, you're not going to get it. Bablu Sobral, the MMA fighter, trains with Gracie Barra, and he had his Brown belt for 5 years before Master Carlos Jr. promoted him to black. So if someone tells me they have a bb in BJJ, I can be reasonbly sure that they are at the level of a master of the art.

 

[JadeDragon3]

I know in BJJ it takes a long time to get a black belt. Something like 10 years. It took me 4 years to get mine in Sil Lum Kung Fu. A friend of mine that does BJJ got his black belt under Carlson Gracie Jr. in I think about 10 years.

 

[zeeberex]

Depends on your style, buddy.

You can get a black in TKD in under a year, so yeah...maybe there.

It takes 4-5 years in Kenpo....

I'll agree with the first line of that, mileage varies with the style.

 

[JadeDragon3]

Bill Wallace got his bb in TKD in 8 months.